40 replies to this topic

[Jaz]

This is a story about love between Pao-yu and Tai-yu.4,623 years ago,there was a divine stone next to which was a crimson flower,and those were the embodiments of the hero and the heroin.Then come to the real mortal world.Pao and Tai are both from a noble family.The grandmother is the most respected person in the family and she loves Pao very much.After Tai's mother(the grandmother's favorite daughter) dies,Tai is sent to the grandmother.Her beauty and genius and cuteness are accepted by all the members,especially Pao-yu.Both of them are doomed to fall in love.But for Tai's health is very poor,and her declining family, the family choose Pao-chai to be Pao-yu's companion.Tai is shocked,smarting from hearing the news.On the very day when Pao-yu's wedding,Tai dies.Pao-yu dies afterwards for his hurt and fortune's wheel.Meanwhile the big family wanes day after day.

[HappyHistorian]

At the moment, I'm studying the Dream of the Red Mansions. I have a few questions that I hope people can answer:

1. What do you think of Baoyu? Do you like him, why?

2. Why are Grandmother Jia and Lady Wang opposed to Xichun becoming a Buddhist nun?

3. Why is Baochai a good daughter-in-law?

4. In Chapter 82, Baoyu is asked what he thinks of the Confucian statement 吾未見好聽如好色者也。Does Baoyu agree with this statement?

5. In Chapter 118, Baoyu discusses these two expression: 聚散浮生 and 赤子之心。What do these expressions mean? How does Baoyu interpret them?

[shunyadragon]

At the moment, I'm studying the Dream of the Red Mansions. I have a few questions that I hope people can answer:

1. What do you think of Baoyu? Do you like him, why?

2. Why are Grandmother Jia and Lady Wang opposed to Xichun becoming a Buddhist nun?

3. Why is Baochai a good daughter-in-law?

4. In Chapter 82, Baoyu is asked what he thinks of the Confucian statement 吾未見好聽如好色者也。Does Baoyu agree with this statement?

5. In Chapter 118, Baoyu discusses these two expression: 聚散浮生 and 赤子之心。What do these expressions mean? How does Baoyu interpret them?

I chewed on this for some time while I lived in China. This thread is helpful to me. I am looking forward to the answers to these questions. I believe there is a reference to playing Chinese Chess in this work. If I am not mistaken, do you know of it, and how it describes the game?

[HappyHistorian]

I chewed on this for some time while I lived in China. This thread is helpful to me. I am looking forward to the answers to these questions. I believe there is a reference to playing Chinese Chess in this work. If I am not mistaken, do you know of it, and how it describes the game?

In the novel, the characters play Go. An aristocratic 18th century Chinese person's past times included playing the zither, reading and composing poetry, painting/callirgaphy and playing Go. Baoyu is fond of these leisure activities.

I hope someone answers the questions that I have asked, I'm sure there are some redologists out there!

Edited by HappyHistorian, 31 August 2010 - 11:21 PM.

[JohnD]

At the moment, I'm studying the Dream of the Red Mansions. I have a few questions that I hope people can answer:

1. What do you think of Baoyu? Do you like him, why?

2. Why are Grandmother Jia and Lady Wang opposed to Xichun becoming a Buddhist nun?

3. Why is Baochai a good daughter-in-law?

4. In Chapter 82, Baoyu is asked what he thinks of the Confucian statement 吾未見好聽如好色者也。Does Baoyu agree with this statement?

5. In Chapter 118, Baoyu discusses these two expression: 聚散浮生 and 赤子之心。What do these expressions mean? How does Baoyu interpret them?

First of all, let me say that Hong lou meng was the first piece of Chinese literature I ever read; this was six or seven years ago. At that time, of course, I didn't know anything about Chinese literature, and I knew very little about Chinese culture. And I read this novel in English. So, it's been a while and my memory is faulty and I know I missed a lot when reading it.

4. I want to answer this one first. I looked up that passage, and it's when Baoyu expounds the saying to his teacher, about how goodness is innate, yet people don't crave it as much as human desire. Although Baoyu does't really state whether he agrees or not, it is mentioned that he didn't want to talk about it because he was sensitive on the subject. I think this indicates he doesn't really agree.

Also, I've always thought of Baoyu as something of a hedonist; he's really only interested in pleasure. Again, could be wrong about this, it's been awhile. He's a slacker, doesn't like studying. Earlier in chapter 82 he complains about the Confucian reading he had to do earlier, and how the commentaries are just a lot of garbage jumbled together, so it's clear he doesn't put much stock in scholarly learning. He prefers to spend time in the garden playing with the girls, yet he likes poetry, the most sensual aspect of scholarly learning.

Let us also remember the first chapter, where the author-narrator introduces the story. He says he was thinking about the girls he once knew and realized they surpassed him in behavior and understanding. Perhaps Hong lou meng is giving beauty its due, and Baoyu believes beauty is not inferior to the law of nature; perhaps the novel is trying to say that beauty is part of that nature.

1. Yeah, I like Baoyu. He's honest in his feelings.

The other questions I'll have to think about, as I have forgotten so much about that book.

[Yizheng]

Actually, I just started reading this book finally, but I'm not far enough to answer all the questions, I'm at chapter 51 right now. I do like Baoyu, and yes, I think he certainly appreciates beauty and pleasure, but not to the extreme that it blinds him to other things around him. He seems quite an open-minded person and freer in spirit. He is a product of his time and his world, but I find he is quite sensitive to others. Like when Liu Laolao comes to visit, for example, the others just laugh at her country bumpkin ways, but Baoyu is really quite genuinely moved and interested by the stories she tells, and also when they celebrate Feng Jie's birthday, he is not afraid to break conventions and what is expected of him and goes away to find a place where he can pay his respect to the memory of Jin Chuan. I would not say he is just a hedonist. He is quite thoughtful and observant, but he does not want to study just the dull stuffy old way just for the sake of it, rote learn the classics, he wants to put time into the things of greater value to him. I also like the way he treats all different people really quite democratically. Within the garden, when the older generation is not around, you can sometimes forget who is servant and who is master, though it was a rigid system at that time, and Baoyu is particularly ready, it seems, to treat everyone in what for that time is quite an equal manner.

Baochai seems to be the portrait of the good daughter in law because although she is also obviously a clever and quite interesting person, she is very sensible, practical, and very accepting of the conventions of that time, very willing to play her part and not rock the boat in any way. This is clear in her attitude to the poetry society, because although she clearly quite enjoys thinking up poems and seems good enough at it, she also likes to remind the others that girls really needn't get so carried away with things like poetry, because stuff like needlework is their main occupation, ultimately. So, she is ready to enjoy different pursuits and pleasures, but only within the limits of what is considered acceptable for a good young lady of that time. From the point of view of the older generation this makes her look a good and sensible choice, no doubt.

[HappyHistorian]

Thanks for the help JohnD and Yizheng! I got a distinction for this subject, so I'm happy!

[Yizheng]

Thanks for the help JohnD and Yizheng! I got a distinction for this subject, so I'm happy!

congratulations on that.
I finished the book since that post I made, and I liked it to the end. It is easy to see why it has had such a big influence. Also, it is a wonderful example of how in any society, and any time, even in a time of rather strict conventions, there are always people, like Cao Xueqin, who think freely and are not afraid to question these conventions and look at life from different possible angles. These kinds of people are always needed. Cao Xueqin had a tough time in his own time, and his modern successors do not everywhere have an easy time either. But the works they produce do make us all the richer.

[tjoa]

Can anyone recommend a good edition of the Mandarin text--in print or preferably online?

Thanks in advance.

[ghostexorcist]

Can anyone recommend a good edition of the Mandarin text--in print or preferably online?

Thanks in advance.

The only online version that immediately comes to mind is the one on wikisource. You can see it here:

http://zh.wikisource...l;³é ­è¨˜

[El Ha]

Maybe here:

http://www.gutenberg.../ebooks/search/