29 replies to this topic

[MengTzu]

Hey all,

How prevalent was the Manchurian language? I want to know if the general population at the time used the Manchurian language or if most people used the Chinese scripts and dialects. Is it possible that such literary works were first written in Manchurian and then translated into Chinese?

Peace,

Michael

11-26-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

I don't think so.. during Qing dynasty, the han-language (chinese) was the official language, used in court and everywhere in China. Only some scripts are written in Manchurian (if you visit Forbidden city, you will find some manchurian writings on the tablets of buildings). For this reason, the manchurian rulers completely sinificized themselves and thus Manchurian language almost died.

[Wú Fēi]

I don't think so.. during Qing dynasty, the han-language (chinese) was the official language, used in court and everywhere in China. Only some scripts are written in Manchurian (if you visit Forbidden city, you will find some manchurian writings on the tablets of buildings). For this reason, the manchurian rulers completely sinificized themselves and thus Manchurian language almost died.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is the fact that why Manchu as a nationality has lost it's own language.

Han-language (汉语，中文，also "Chinese Language" in English) was and is widely used everywhere. What I may tell is that since Mongolian Yuan Dynasty the dialect of Beijing (北京，which was called Dadu大都 in that time) had became popular as one kind of Han-language's standard.

The real Manchurian language is a separated sort, which belongs to another phylum that contains languages of Japanese and Korean and Mongolian.

[浪淘音]

That is the fact that why Manchu as a nationality has lost it's own language.

Han-language (汉语，中文，also "Chinese Language" in English) was and is widely used everywhere. What I may tell is that since Mongolian Yuan Dynasty the dialect of Beijing (北京，which was called Dadu大都 in that time) had became popular as one kind of Han-language's standard.

The real Manchurian language is a separated sort, which belongs to another phylum that contains languages of Japanese and Korean and Mongolian.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the last sentence is wrong. Korean and Japanese are thought to be isolated languages with only influence from Altaic languages. however, Manchu is a true Tungusic language

a similar example: Viet was thought to be Sino Tibetan for a long time but has since been proven to be Mon-khmer. This confusion arose out of the fact that Viet is so heavily influenced by Chinese.

[Karakhan]

Oddly the closest language to Manchu that exist now is Xibo and Nanai. More the case with Xibo since it is intelligible with Manchu, some things is different like East means west and west means east. and Xibo is very slurred and words are shortened. I will post example later.

Xibo and Manchu belong to the South west branch of Tungus, the South east branch is Hezhe/Nanai, Udeghe (and a bunch of small tribes in present day Russia). From what I read, Hezhe and Nanai (same thing, just one is the Chinese name).. seem also intelligible with Manchu..but because they was so far and isolated, they manage to minimize Manchu influence over them and Sinitic influence (but there is still some, for example their word for big is Dai).

the only Tungus language sub group that was truely different from Manchu is the Nothern Tungus branch (Even, Evenki, Solon, etc). It seem to have some features not found in Southwest and South East Tungus, like extended vowel (i.e a and aa) which u tend to find in Mongolian. Physically too, they resembled Mongols more with a rounder type head, larger cheekbone, etc vs the more elonged narrow head of Manchu and Tungus. (this is a genrealization)

[wlee15]

The Manchurian language was in use in the court until the 19th century when Beijing Mandarian became to replace both Manchurian and Nanjing Mandarian as the main language of the court. However all official documents produced by the central government were written in both Chinese and Manchurian.

[stupidumboy]

Slightly off topic,

During the Qing dynasty,Korean(Chosun) official interpreters learned Mnchurian Language by using '淸語老乞大'--it is consist of 8 books -xylographic book.

There are a few living Koreans who familiar with Manchurian language very well.
But they are all old and do not know if they raised their juniors successfully...

Do you guys know any of the good websites that provide about learning manchu language?

[tianzhuwoye]

There really isn't much out there for the time being but things are starting to pick up, especially in the PRC. For now the best thing in English is http://www.manjugisun.com/ but it doesn't have too much outside of a surprisingly comprehensive Manchu-English (two way) dictionary. From the PRC, http://surehan.blogchina.com/ is only just starting up but is already pretty cool, though you'll probably want some background first. Manchuren.com has some really good basic material at http://www.manchuren.com/my.htm and then once you're a hero give it a shot at http://www.jaksa.org/forum/index.asp.

There was a decent site in english a while back but it's disappeared. Manchu study in the 'west' is finally catching on again (it hasn't been big since the early Qing empire when missionaries and whatnot would learn Manchu- and usually not Chinese- in order to communicate with the court. Most of the European translations from that period of classics originally written in Chinese were translated from their Manchu versions) and especially now that Professor Gertraude Roth Li's textbook is out we can probably expect more and better stuff online in the near future.

[stupidumboy]

There really isn't much out there for the time being but things are starting to pick up, especially in the PRC. For now the best thing in English is  http://www.manjugisun.com/ but it doesn't have too much outside of a surprisingly comprehensive Manchu-English (two way) dictionary. From the PRC, http://surehan.blogchina.com/ is only just starting up but is already pretty cool, though you'll probably want some background first. Manchuren.com has some really good basic material at http://www.manchuren.com/my.htm and then once you're a hero give it a shot at http://www.jaksa.org/forum/index.asp.

There was a decent site in english a while back but it's disappeared. Manchu study in the 'west' is finally catching on again (it hasn't been big since the early Qing empire when missionaries and whatnot would learn Manchu- and usually not Chinese- in order to communicate with the court. Most of the European translations from that period of classics originally written in Chinese were translated from their Manchu versions) and especially now that Professor Gertraude Roth Li's textbook is out we can probably expect more and better stuff online in the near future.

I am very much appreciated to your valuable informations -
thank you very much,

[tianzhuwoye]

I am very much appreciated to your valuable informations -
thank you very much, 

No problem at all

Just want to add real quick that if anyone out there is using Professor Li's text, pay attention because that thing is absolutely full of mistakes- it's not exactly the easiest kind of book to find a proofreader for. I do have the corrections here though (she's posted them online), and if anybody's interested I'd be more than happy to pass them along or tell you where to go to find them. Also to avoid confusion, it should be pointed out that the language used on jaksa.org is mostly contemporary Sibe as opposed to techincal Manchu.

[stupidumboy]

if anyone out there is using Professor Li's text, pay attention because that thing is absolutely full of mistakes- it's not exactly the easiest kind of book to find a proofreader for.

I know I sound like very forward,but are you mentioning this book?

http://www.amazon.co...=glance&s=books

And one more question please,if you know any of good audio learning material for Manchu language-please recommend one.

Thank you.

[tianzhuwoye]

Yep, that’s the one. If you really want to study Manchu, it’s also pretty much your only option as nothing else is available in just about any language- even the PRC texts are really hard to come by. There’s been talk of an English translation of the out of print Mandschu Grammatik but it seems to keep getting put off then passed on to someone else to finish. We’ll see what happens.

We’re out of luck as far as audio materials. Changes over time have been great enough that the few remaining fluent speakers of Manchu out there are speaking a language already appreciably removed from what was recorded in the early Qing texts (as a side note, there’s still plenty of controversy over what English- or Chinese or any other language- tended to sound like in this time period) so if you’re studying something modern and recordable, it’s going to be Sibe, which isn’t exactly a mass-market language. For right now the situation with Manchu is similar to that with Latin and Egyptian Hieroglyphics, where there’s a general standard based on a theoretical reconstruction of the pronunciation and everyone just tries to go by it. In a sense it's a good thing because at least you don’t have to waste too much time worrying about your accent

[stupidumboy]

Yep, that’s the one. If you really want to study Manchu, it’s also pretty much your only option as nothing else is available in just about any language- even the PRC texts are really hard to come by. There’s been talk of an English translation of the out of print Mandschu Grammatik but it seems to keep getting put off then passed on to someone else to finish. We’ll see what happens.

We’re out of luck as far as audio materials. Changes over time have been great enough that the few remaining fluent speakers of Manchu out there are speaking a language already appreciably removed from what was recorded in the early Qing texts (as a side note, there’s still plenty of controversy over what English- or Chinese or any other language- tended to sound like in this time period) so if you’re studying something modern and recordable, it’s going to be Sibe, which isn’t exactly a mass-market language. For right now the situation with Manchu is similar to that with Latin and Egyptian Hieroglyphics, where there’s a general standard based on a theoretical reconstruction of the pronunciation and everyone just tries to go by it. In a sense it's a good thing because at least you don’t have to waste too much time worrying about your accent 

si sain,baniha!

Its pretty interesting to know that once used to be one of the official language of Kingdom of Qing have been disappearing without any forceful control or policy.

At least this fact gives us many things to think about the rise and fall of languages
in the world.

[sahaliyan]

Aha, but there is a place where you can get some audio. However, it might not be accurate, as I do not know who is speaking (e.g. they sound young, so likely native Mandarin speakers?).

http://www.qiren.cn/

Look for the 800 common phrases thing. Typing Chinese online is a bit dodgy on this computer, but I'm sure you guys can figure it out. Unfortunately I could not secure the Manchu text from the guy who runs the site. Maybe you can do better.

Tianzhuwoye agv, saiyvn! Minde Gertraude i bithe bi, Norman i manju-angliya buleku bithe bi inu. Manju gisun be taciki damu labdu ssolo akv :-( Could you pass on the errata to me?

Baniha!

sahaliyan

[tianzhuwoye]

Norman i manju-angliya buleku bithe bi inu.

wow, where did you land that?

My bad for forgetting qiren.cn. Hell, I even have their logo on my wallpaper. Fact is I don't have sound on this computer (ahem) but it's not like I'd have an expert opinion to offer on the recordings even if I could hear it. But thanks big time for pointing out that this does exist.

The corrections can be found at http://groups.yahoo....up/ManchuStudy/ but you have to sign up (it's free). It's a really heavyweight group and only active in occasional bursts.