23 replies to this topic

[Solid_Snake]

why isn't lubu on the list??, he was a idot!!!

[Zuo Zongtang]

隋炀帝 (Sui Yangdi). Is he not ancient enough?

How the hell do you lose 3,000,000 troops in a war while your opponent loses a couple percent of that? And to top it off, you lose your throne because of it. I mean, daddy's army got crushed by the Koreans, but Yangdi doesn't learn his lesson. He marches on three more times with more men, and loses more men. Yangdi should have stopped playing soldier and left commanding to actual generals. I mean, to lose so badly that of the million that started out, only a few thousand scramble back? What the hell was he thinking? A child would have more sense than he.

[Yun]

why isn't lubu on the list??, he was a idot!!!

Can you list anything historical (i.e. non-fictional) Lu Bu did that can be considered idiotic?

[Yun]

How the hell do you lose 3,000,000 troops in a war while your opponent loses a couple percent of that? And to top it off, you lose your throne because of it. I mean, daddy's army got crushed by the Koreans, but Yangdi doesn't learn his lesson. He marches on three more times with more men, and loses more men. Yangdi should have stopped playing soldier and left commanding to actual generals. I mean, to lose so badly that of the million that started out, only a few thousand scramble back? What the hell was he thinking? A child would have more sense than he.

1. Yang Jian didn't get "crushed by the Koreans". He lost more than half of his troops to starvation, disease, and shipwreck, and pulled out once Koguryo offered a face-saving truce. We can blame lousy logistics, but not poor generalship.

2. Sui Yangdi lost 323,000 men in the first invasion, not 3 million. The blame for that death toll lies mainly with Yuwen Shu, who totally botched up a river crossing during the retreat. The second invasion nearly succeeded, but was aborted because of Yang Xuangan's rebellion. The third invasion was successful in military terms - it brought Koguryo to a state of submission - but the Sui empire was on the brink of collapse by then.

3. Yangdi was not so much more stubborn than Tang Taizong. Taizong almost invaded a second time in 647 after failing the first time in 645, but was persuaded by his advisors to use a more limited harassing strategy, with smaller units taking turns hitting Koguryo from different sides. If Taizong had not died in 649, there would probably have been a second invasion.

4. Yangdi went to Koguryo with his army, but actually left most of the commanding to "actual generals".

[Sephodwyrm]

Plus, Yang Guang had a good rep for the invasion of Chen Empire of the south in the unification campaign. I don't think he did much apart from looking around for Zhang Lihua (which I would do as well), but at least he didn't botch things up.

One of the objectives of this thread is to bring up some battles and some generals that fought in them. The battles are specifically chosen for those that are disastrously lost or of sheer stupidity. The criteria is that anyone in this forum could perhaps do a better job. That's my idea, at least.

Edited by Sephodwyrm, 04 March 2007 - 04:54 PM.

[Wujiang]

Well, while his battle record is mediocre at best, I think Li Guang deserves the title of worse general in terms of management and discipline enforcement.

[Sephodwyrm]

Li Guang deserves the title of worse general in terms of management and discipline enforcement.

Lol.
But a happy army is an effective one. His units aren't that bad. And disciplining frontiersmen is not going to increase their fighting efficiency. But disciplining hooligans from Chang'an is more likely to have a sizeable return.

Edited by Sephodwyrm, 05 March 2007 - 05:39 PM.

[Shifa Shengli]

Zhao Kuo,,, The Paper Tiger of Zhao

lost against Bai Qi,,, 450.000 soldiers burried alive,,, how great

[SlickSlicer]

Why is Zhuge Dan on this list? His rebellion might have failed in the end, but his career prior to defeat wasn't so terrible. There are probably dozens of worse military commanders you could choose from in the Late-Han->Three Kingdoms period.

Edited by SlickSlicer, 22 August 2011 - 03:45 AM.