38 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

Since we had some topics talking about virginity, I thought it might be interesting to check out the sexual attitude of CHF members.

The western sexual attitude tends to be rather liberal in sex. Pre-marital sex seems to be considered a norm in American and European society. In Asia, due to increasing influence from the west, there are also many couples who practise pre-marital sex. On the other hand, some of the more conservative or religious people might delay sex till after marriage.

For me, I grew up in a traditional chinese family. For me, I prefer to have sex only after marriage, or at least till I get engaged with someone. My buddhist teaching encourages me to have sex only after marriage, so that I can concentrate developing romantic relationship and understanding with my girlfriend, before we get married.

What about you? Is pre-marital sex acceptable to you?

[viji]

Since we had some topics talking about virginity, I thought it might be interesting to check out the sexual attitude of CHF members.

The western sexual attitude tends to be rather liberal in sex. Pre-marital sex seems to be considered a norm in American and European society. In Asia, due to increasing influence from the west, there are also many couples who practise pre-marital sex. On the other hand, some of the more conservative or religious people might delay sex till after marriage.

For me, I grew up in a traditional chinese family. For me, I prefer to have sex only after marriage, or at least till I get engaged with someone. My buddhist teaching encourages me to have sex only after marriage, so that I can concentrate developing romantic relationship and understanding with my girlfriend, before we get married.

What about you? Is pre-marital sex acceptable to you?

Other views: in a relationship, like GZY, I put a lot of focus and emphasis on nurturing a loving and romantic relationship with each other, developing a deeper sense of companionship and understanding with each other, having lots of quality time together doing the things we like while learning to accept differences.

I have no objections with pre-marital sex as long as the two care and love each other deeply, and I have this view that sexual intercourse plays a bonding role between two individuals emotionally and shan't be something hollow and trivial. Really, sex is a the biological programming for the survival of a species so its natural to have urges to do it, but to have sex just for the sake of sastifying lust, for pleasure, or for having fun is something that I can't really accept. Well, since we humans pride overselves to have mental faculties way above and beyond mere animals, then why should we give in into this "lowly" sensation of lust. There is just so much more in a loving relationship than sexual pursuits.

Sex is second fiddle to me in a loving relationship, its the warmth and feeling that someone who cherishes and cares for you that really brings out the best in me and my other half. E.g., my partner preparing a beautiful lunchbox for me during lunch and having her company to have lunch together; or having a long trek up the hills to watch the stars together. Just wonderful.

Pre-marital sex doesn't really crop up much in my relationship anyways, since the both of us has made a commitment to really think about it after marriage, probably influenced by our traditional upbringing, then again, we've never thought of it as a hindrance or something outdated, since we think when the day comes, we think it would be quite exciting and out of this world. Waiting it out is kind of like saving the best for last.

[kaiselin]

There are many things to consider.
How old are you? How mature are you? Those two things don't mean the same thing. If you are under 17 wait. No matter how much you think you are in love, and your body is screaming for it, you are simply emotionally not yet ready. After18 or 19 we mature quickly and it so more difficult to judge an individuals maturity without knowing them.

How strong is the relationship? How well do you know each other? Are you both good friends as well as being in a serious relationship?

As long as you are not sleeping around, but in a stable relationship with someone who you love, and you use the proper precautions, I see no reason why you need to wait.

Are you both in love but considering you want to live together first to see if you are compatible? I strongly recommend this choice.


Marriage is a huge step that hopefully will last your lifetime, there is no way of knowing all the things that are going to come at you. Being a best friend to your partner is just as important as being in love with them. The lust of an early relationship will eventually turn to routine. Its good to enjoy your partner in bed. Not everyone is suited sexually for each other. If you don't enjoy sex with your partner, you better be prepared for many other problems if you have made a legal commitment. Yes there is much more to marriage than sex, but it is a vital ingredient to a healthy relationship.

I'm all for sex before marriage, but..DO NOT make this decision lightly.

[Western man]

What about you? Is pre-marital sex acceptable to you?

I voted for "other views" because I use different standards. In the tradition of my family marriage had two purposes: procreation of a son and heir as well as a conformation of the positive relationship between the families of husband and wife. So, when man has premarital intercouse with a woman in order to check whether their potential wife is fertile, I can accept it. (As far as I know, there are no gratis tests for female fertility, at least not in all parts of the world. Also, one can say that this is an aspect of tradition from the time when there were no reliable medical tests at all.) In any case, parents should be informed. But when people have sexual intercourse for fun before marriage, I think it's immoral. It would be a waste of time and life force.

Edited by Western man, 26 April 2007 - 08:05 PM.

[kaiselin]

I voted for "other views" because I use different standards. In the tradition of my family marriage had two purposes: procreation of a son and heir as well as a conformation of the positive relationship between the families of husband and wife. So, when man has premarital intercouse with a woman in order to check whether their potential wife is fertile, I can accept it. (As far as I know, there are no gratis tests for female fertility, at least not in all parts of the world. Also, one can say that this is an aspect of tradition from the time when there were no reliable medical tests at all.) In any case, parents should be informed. But when people have sexual intercourse for fun before marriage, I think it's immoral. It would be a waste of time and life force.

Hi Western man,
I have a couple of questions for you. I ask these questions for the sake of understanding a culture different then my own and not to condem or make fun of your culture.
What you are describing is an arranged marriage. The parents agree that it is OK to have sex to see if she can get pregnant.
1]Not everyone gets pregnant the first time they have sex. How long does this go on till it is determined that she is unable to have children? It took me well over 10 years to get pregnant, and there was no lack of trying. If as in my case the couple in question even had sex for a year, there would be a strong attachment to each other. Would it not be difficult to reject her after that amount of time?
2]What happens to her if she does not get pregnant? Is she damaged goods and can she get married to anyone else?
3] What if it is the male that is infertile? Are the males tested to make sure that it is not them that are sterile?
4]If the man is later found to be the one who has the problem does the women get a second chance to redeem her face in your culture?

[Sephodwyrm]

I am for pre-marital sex and against post-marital sex.
Hence I voted for other views.
The only reason you'd marry would be that you want to keep her from having sex with anyone else, and that includes you as well.
LOL!!!!

<<Darling, we marry because we want to remain celibate for the rest of our lives...>>
<<No, sweet heart, let me have some crazy wild fun first with 7-8 guys/girls in one go and then we'll get married...>>

Edited by Sephodwyrm, 26 April 2007 - 08:46 PM.

[Western man]

Hi Western man,
I have a couple of questions for you. I ask these questions for the sake of understanding a culture different then my own and not to condem or make fun of your culture.

Maybe the traditional cultures weren't even so different from each other but rather our perceptions of them. The latter might depend, e.g., on social class.

What you are describing is an arranged marriage. The parents agree that it is OK to have sex to see if she can get pregnant.

Not only arranged marriage but also premarital affairs under parental control. I think this model would also fit into present-day society. IMO sexual activity should not be treated like an "act of emancipation" or even a "sport" by young people.

1]Not everyone gets pregnant the first time they have sex. How long does this go on till it is determined that she is unable to have children? It took me well over 10 years to get pregnant, and there was no lack of trying. If as in my case the couple in question even had sex for a year, there would be a strong attachment to each other. Would it not be difficult to reject her after that amount of time?

It all naturally depends on the broader context of the mating strategies. Some people (though this is becoming less common today) prefer mating strategies which involve less personal attachment. Last but not least, marriage itself is part of a mating strategy.

Essentially, I think that most people today put too much emphasis on romantic values. I know many people who want to believe in romantic relationship but are not capable of building them up. There are also other values, such as "good at cooking", "good at repairing things" etc. That is why people whom I know stay together. And when someone takes childlessness as a bad omen, why shouldn't he end the relationship? If a woman does not like the idea of living together a man who believes in such an interpretation of omina, she should know it from the beginning. But it is not his fault when she doesn't ask in which values he believes.

2]What happens to her if she does not get pregnant? Is she damaged goods and can she get married to anyone else?

Like many things, that would depend on the rumours. But the latter are always around. Also, today everybody can move away or try to get professional help if there is the suspicion of infertility.

3] What if it is the male that is infertile? Are the males tested to make sure that it is not them that are sterile?

When men suspect that they're infertile, they can go to a doctor, adopt a child, become a monk or live the postmodern life of a single. Today there are more options than in the past.

4]If the man is later found to be the one who has the problem does the women get a second chance to redeem her face in your culture?

This is a misunderstanding, I suppose. Further above in the thread, I was talking about the culture of my ancestors and about how I think they perceived their mating strategies. My culture is what I live in the present, and that's beyond marriage. As for my ancestors, I never asked anyone about that because it doesn't concern me. But, as I pointed out above, I accept their values as what they are: relevant to those who believe in them. As you can guess from what I already replied above, traditional men did not necessarily care about left women's fate because there was not much personal attachment to the spouse.

[kaiselin]

Thanks,Western man,
I have more questions,

Essentially, I think that most people today put too much emphasis on romantic values. I know many people who want to believe in romantic relationship but are not capable of building them up. There are also other values, such as "good at cooking", "good at repairing things" etc. That is why people whom I know stay together. And when someone takes childlessness as a bad omen, why shouldn't he end the relationship? If a woman does not like the idea of living together a man who believes in such an interpretation of omina, she should know it from the beginning. But it is not his fault when she doesn't ask in which values he believes.

As you can guess from what I already replied above, traditional men did not necessarily care about left women's fate because there was not much personal attachment to the spouse

Does the woman have a choice decide if she wants to marry the man?

There are also other values, such as "good at cooking", "good at repairing things" etc. That is why people whom I know stay together.

If the Man does not live up to the expectations of the woman or her family does she have the option to leave the marriage?
and if so,
Can she take her children with her?

Edited by kaiselin, 26 April 2007 - 11:59 PM.

[Western man]

Thanks,Western man,
I have more questions,
Does the woman have a choice decide if she wants to marry the man?

In the past not, but today of course. It would be a bit strange if not, though I wouldn't mind since it doesn't concern me.

If the Man does not live up to the expectations of the woman or her family does she have the option to leave the marriage?

In the theory of tradition, her fathers and brothers would help her out of many situations, probably even the one you describe. But in practice, such actions were unconventional. This is what I know from books on the past of Confucian societies, not from own experience. Today men, particularly in my family, don't care much about Confucian (or pseudo-Confucian) values.

Edited by Western man, 27 April 2007 - 12:38 AM.

[Shaolin]

It is ok as long as its between Opposite sex.........and of the same species too......

But never regard it in your mind as a must before marriage.....

Coz Sex is a just part of love.............my cents worth.............

[Western man]

Sex is one of the most fun and most important aspects of being on this planet.

For me, it is a highly individual thing - for some the sexual act is a deep and almost holy experience; these people tend to be cautious about who they open up to as they likely feel vulnerable during and after. For others it is more relaxed, more light, and these people will likely enjoy many partners and relationships, varying in emotional intimacy from the light-hearted and casual to the deep, meaningful and life-altering.

Thus I think it is a shame that human society has tried to legislate human sexuality though the ages (mating strategies etc) - this has caused a lot of misery and uncertainty in people.

Sex is a thing that an individual needs to explore in him/herself, with honesty, care and awareness.

In my personal experience it is primarily what people expect from others. This became even more intrusive when society started to talk openly about it. Today you may have a sort of social advantage because you like to talk about sexual intercourse.

Other people are different. E.g. I myself am not at all fascinated by sexual intercourse. Yet, I can't deny that many mating strategies are just clever. For example, a medieval religious leader who officially condemned sexual intercourse might have been more successful in giving his genes to the next generation than an average Western person of today. It has something to do with survival: one lineage survives, the other does not. IMO it does not matter whether you consciously or not consciously choose a mating strategy. Different mating strategies (and different motifs for mating) will persist as long as there will be different types of people. In this sense I do hope that traditional mating strategies will not just fade away because they represent cultural diversity.

[yongzheng freak]

Sex to me is a natural (and some what enjoyable) part of life to be done when both parties are sure that they want to spend a large portion of their lifetime together - not necessarily translate into marriage. Well, that's my two cents' worth....

[Mok]

Other views: in a relationship, like GZY, I put a lot of focus and emphasis on nurturing a loving and romantic relationship with each other, developing a deeper sense of companionship and understanding with each other, having lots of quality time together doing the things we like while learning to accept differences.

I have no objections with pre-marital sex as long as the two care and love each other deeply, and I have this view that sexual intercourse plays a bonding role between two individuals emotionally and shan't be something hollow and trivial. Really, sex is a the biological programming for the survival of a species so its natural to have urges to do it, but to have sex just for the sake of sastifying lust, for pleasure, or for having fun is something that I can't really accept. Well, since we humans pride overselves to have mental faculties way above and beyond mere animals, then why should we give in into this "lowly" sensation of lust. There is just so much more in a loving relationship than sexual pursuits.

Sex is second fiddle to me in a loving relationship, its the warmth and feeling that someone who cherishes and cares for you that really brings out the best in me and my other half. E.g., my partner preparing a beautiful lunchbox for me during lunch and having her company to have lunch together; or having a long trek up the hills to watch the stars together. Just wonderful.

Pre-marital sex doesn't really crop up much in my relationship anyways, since the both of us has made a commitment to really think about it after marriage, probably influenced by our traditional upbringing, then again, we've never thought of it as a hindrance or something outdated, since we think when the day comes, we think it would be quite exciting and out of this world. Waiting it out is kind of like saving the best for last.

Excellent, excellent!! The very same reasons why I save myself for The One.

- Mok

[Publius]

IMO, a couple can be emotionally, spiritually married without going through a ritual that announces to everyone else that a marriage exists. To me, this is an issue of monogamy, not marriage.