56 replies to this topic

[norenxaq]

(The passage that reads, "descendant of a 2 thousand year-old royal lineage" predates LanXang to the Kingdom of Nanchao which also precedes Nanchao Kingdom itself, to the Ai Lao Kingdom of "Pya Ngai")

what is this claim of 2000 years based on? Who were the rulers of this kingdom before Piloko?

[KhamMung]

what is this claim of 2000 years based on? Who were the rulers of this kingdom before Piloko?

The beginning of the Lao as a kingdom can be taken back to the year 08 A.D., or the Buddha Sukkarath year 551. During this time the Ai Lao, or Lao kingdom known as the Kingdom of “Pay Ngai,” The second ruler of Pay Ngai was named Wongmuang or Khun Wongmuang. Chinese names my differ… as in Khun Boron = Piloko

In the year 78 A.D. Pay Ngai still under Chinese rule, a new King emerged named Lai Lao or Khun Lai Lao. Again, Chinese names my differ in text…

Pay Ngai, the Chinese name of it, am not sure… but precedes Nanchao…
The Ai Lao started to build up their cities and strengthing its defenses in their primary six cities, Mong Suoi, Aih Say, Lung Gong, Teng Jieng, See Larng, and Mong Say or Nong Sair/Dta Lee, the capital being Nong Say. These six cities make up the Newly formed Kingdom of Nanchao which are the foundations of the early Pay Ngai cities of the Lao…

The Lao King is the extention of the Nanchao Kingdom and the kings that formed Nanchao, the Shan of Burma as well as the ppl of Lanna and Lao hold to this same belief. Piloko (Khun Boron) founded Loungphabang as its capital in the newly acquired territories in Southeast Asia. Khun Lo or Ko Lo Feng ruled from Loungphabang until Piloko’s death.

"Khun Lo" ruled Loungphabang (Ko Lo Feng or Ko Lor Phong)
"Khun Palanh" ruled SipsongPanna, (China)
"Khun Chusong" ruled TungKea, (Muang HuaoPhanh to Tonkin,Vietnam)
"Khun Saiphong" ruled Lanna, (ChiengMai,Thailand)
"Khun Ngua In" ruled Ayuthaya, (Thailand)
"Khun Lok khom" ruled Moung Hongsa (Inthaputh),(Shan state,Burma)
"Khun ChetCheang" ruled Moung Phuan, (XiengKhouang,Laos)

Chao Fifah (Khamhiao) the line to Khun Lo, had 6 sons and one of them was "Chao FaNgum".

Chao FaNgum created LanXang, from Chao FaNgum to Chao Setthaya who moved the capital to ViengChan, and the line of him extended to Chao Anouvong last King of ViengChan, which is the most direct path to Chao FaNgum, the second path is King of Loungphabang who are his cousins… rounding up u have around 2000 years…

Edited by KhamMung, 10 July 2006 - 03:10 PM.

[grandmaster]

Poy I can see you have been studying and researching . You are doing a good job poy. YOu know I can't log in to lao hub anymore that is why I havent been posting there. Any ways I just wanted to mention that most of the record that chinese historians have documented and kept are the same as the history taught in laos. As you can see here Chinese history is our evidence that our history is true because it is the same as the one in laos. The only thing different is that in laos we were taught that all of the ai lao people in Pay ngai a few thousand years ago all got assimulate in with chinese but on discovery show, western scholars showed them speaking lao still. I think we owe alot of gratitude to the chinese historians and mordern chinese government for preserving our history . I am not sure which university it is but if I remember right it is the university of Bei jing that is currently doing studies on our people in china. In lao history we were taught that the people in loong and Ba city already turn into chinese but recent chinese studies shows that they still speak lao. The people in Loong are now called Loong jin and the people in Ba city are now called Bai yi. I am very thankful to see this subject and to learn that china had preserved our history very well especially about Pilaoko and Kolofeng. This also shows that our history cannot be burnt our wiped out by the central thai because China still has alot of our record.

[KhamMung]

hey EK, i was trying to figure out who that was...
u know, I was going to get in contact with you, and I was going to ask u questions about this subject... I was going to see if u heard about this site…

I talk with many Thai ppl about this subject, they are beginning to realize some of this now, they don’t deny the influence of the Khmer on their ppl. I gave props to the Chinese on laohub, that they do a great job in analyzing history. I had some Thai ppl on laohub giving me some slack, but as u know, I don’t care much about what ppl say, I rather them to just think rather then just accept... They write stuff in Thai, thinking I wont know what they are saying, but I have a Thai spy, poo sao Chiangrai who translates for me… hahaha

I just disseminate information so ppl can make up their own mines… I thank the Chinese for opening the discussion, and hope the world can see and understand what is history... The more we understand about each other the better we are become as ppl... I as well as everyone here, are here to learn from each other... thanx... and how did u know it was me EK...

[grandmaster]

hey EK, i was trying to figure out who that was...
u know, I was going to get in contact with you, and I was going to ask u questions about this subject... I was going to see if u heard about this site…

I talk with many Thai ppl about this subject, they are beginning to realize some of this now, they don’t deny the influence of the Khmer on their ppl. I gave props to the Chinese on laohub, that they do a great job in analyzing history. I had some Thai ppl on laohub giving me some slack, but as u know, I don’t care much about what ppl say, I rather them to just think rather then just accept... They write stuff in Thai, thinking I wont know what they are saying, but I have a Thai spy, poo sao Chiangrai who translates for me… hahaha

I just disseminate information so ppl can make up their own mines… I thank the Chinese for opening the discussion, and hope the world can see and understand what is history... The more we understand about each other the better we are become as ppl... I as well as everyone here, are here to learn from each other... thanx... and how did u know it was me EK...

I work for the UNITED NATION remember. It is my job to go to different parts of the world to do exacavation and help preserved world heritage. I research ancient ruins , ancient arts and ancient writtings for historians. I looked at the your writing style and could tell right away its you because I seen your post before.

[grandmaster]

Thanks for the input, Grandmaster! I still have some questions, though.

Khun Lo, the founder of Muang Sa (later Luang Prabang), the first 'Lao' state, is described in some online sources as a Tai prince who rebelled against Nanzhao in 698 and founded an independent state which he ruled until 780 (thus living to a remarkable age of over 100). Yet other sources date him to the 12th century. Khun Lo's supposed father, Khun Borom, is the legendary progenitor of the Tai people, but nothing historical is known about him.

Since Piluoge only founded Nanzhao in 737, I find it unlikely that Khun Lo could have rebelled and founded Muang Sa in 698. Furthermore, another source (David Wyatt) only says that the earliest record of the Khun Borom myth is found in Siang Khwang in 698. Is that date the basis for dating Muang Sa's founding to 698? If so, it is a weak basis indeed.

So is there any conclusive link at all between Khun Borom and Khun Lo and the Nanzhao kingdom, or is it only speculation?

See these sites:
http://en.wikipedia....of_Laos_to_1945
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Khun_Borom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khun_Lo
http://experts.about.../Khun_Borom.htm
http://experts.about...ory_of_Laos.htm

I think you have mistaken what was found in Xieng Khuang in 698. What you are talking about here is not the story of Khun borom creating the world. What you are talking about here is the Thao hoong Thao juang epic . The Thao Hoong Thao Juang is a khmer warrior king from Yonok country (currently day norther thailand) . The khmer also know him as Pra huang. The book was written in 698 then passed on by mouth of people and then rewritten in Northern thailand(lanna). It then came to northern laos . That is the story of the legendary warrior khun Juang of the khmer. I am not exact on the date but I think it was rewritten after the 1200 AD. In 698 there were no lao kingdom in Xieng khuang. If there were a lao ruler then that ruler was under the khmer power or under the viet. During that time the khmer kingdom reach all the way up to northern thailand. Khun juang of yonok country was at war with Dai viet back and forth fighting for xieng khuang. Xieng khuang (Puan country) was at the time vietnames land. It was not until Piloko came in power that the Viet ask Piloko for help. Piloko then sent his son to war with the legendary khun juang(pra huang). Kolofeng then killed khun juang. That was the turning point for the ai lao state of Nanchao. Kolofeng then came and took Swa(luangpraband) from the khmer causing the khmer to regroup south in Nandaburi(Muang Nan thailand) and Chantaburi(vientiane Laos). The story of khun borom creating the world cannot be created in 698 in Xieng khuang because Xieng khuang was viet territory at the time.

There were a lao kingdom beginning in 698 starting . IT was the kingdom of Jieng hai jieng lao( mordern day chieng rai). It started from Lawangkarnjangkarath ( king lao goak)from 698 - all the way down to king Lao Meng . Lao Meng is the father of king Menghai of jieng hai (Mengrai of Chieng RAi). All these lao kings were name had the word lao in front of their names. Menghai build a new city and called it Nopburi Sri Nakorn Ping Jieng Mai( chieng mai thailand). Before lao goak they were probably all under the khmer empire. Lao Goak might have even been under the khmer empire. Lao Goak became king in 698 in jieng hai( chieng rai).

The lao state of lanna was the first lao state in southeast asia. Luangprabang is offially the second lao state in southeast asia recognized by different empires around them . Before these two were an independent state they were all part of Nanchao when Kolofeng was in power. Piloko extended the state of Nanchao when he had good relations with the chinese. Kolofeng extended even more. The Ai lao state of Nanchao extended from northern vietnam( the red river) , northern laos, northern thailand, burma (the shan state) , all the way to Assam India. The Ai lao state of of Nanchao went all north to where it is map by chinese sources. When kolofeng was in powere he took I think about 12 kingdoms from the chinese. Kolofeng was lucky when he war with the chinese. If hunger and malaria was not the problem kolofeng knew he was going to lose the war. Back then every empire feared china including Nanchao.

The city that kolofeng took from the khmer name Swa is pronounced Java. During that time the khmer empire hit its peak. The khmer empire of Jenla or junla was already under another kingdom. That kingdom was the kingdom of Java from the south. The Javanese sailed into southern mordern day vietnam fought and had the khmer empire of jenla under their power. The javanese fought the khmer all the way into what is now central thailand. The khmer empire submit to the power of Java. The city of khmer jenla in the north was named java because it was under java once. The lao pronounce it Sawa or Swa. The year Junlasakarath was from the date that the Jenla empire fell.

Many people misunderstand when it comes to the word tai . We the ai lao (lao) people did not call ourselves tai until the end of Nanchao empire. During the Nanchao empire we call ourselves Ai lao or lao for short. Towards the end of Nanchao we call ourselves tai. Till this day no one really know why we started calling ourselves tai because the word tai has many meaning. Tai as in the meaning people. Tai as in the meaning free. Tai as for the meaning highly spirit.

[Mephisto]

Haven' t studied the complete thread yet but the topic is interesting. An old book of Coedes mentioned something like : "unlike we thought before, it seems they were not Thais but likely Tibeto Burmese ".

Is this completely outdated or is there still some support for this in academic circles?

[ZhugeLiang Kongming]

I work for the UNITED NATION remember. It is my job to go to different parts of the world to do exacavation and help preserved world heritage. I research ancient ruins , ancient arts and ancient writtings for historians. I looked at the your writing style and could tell right away its you because I seen your post before.

Hey GrandMaster, what is the name of your office? What was the last exacavation that you were involved?

[KhamMung]

Does anyone have the knowledge or ability to look into the catalogues of the Bejing University Library.

there is a book that is written in Thai or English that is banded in Thailand by the government because of its content. but a source has told me that the book can be found in the Library at Bejing University... I cant seem to find it anywhere? the contents of the book has very serious implications that needs to be discussed and debated.

the book in thai reads, "Mae Bok Wa Rao Pen Lao." there is an english transtation of the book i believe. but it translates into, "Mother told us we are Lao." the implications are such that the aurther of the book is the only sister of the King of Thailand, her name is Pra Pii Nang. Currently the King of Thailand and his family are slowly leaking infomation saying that they are the line of the Lao royal bloodline, but even he is unable to fully disclose the infomation because of the 200 year old atempt to erase the connection between thai and lao ppl; propaganda the ppl of thailand have been fed over the many years, knowledge from this book and the truth it inveals can disrupt their social order.

but also, the infomation contained in the book may finally put to rest the debate and argument between the history and relationship of the two nations, laos and thailand...

[Paw Yai Lee]

... book that is written in Thai or English that is banded in Thailand by the government because of its content... in thai reads, "Mae Bok Wa Rao Pen Lao." ....

This thread seems to have gone dead after this post! But, if anyone is still reading here, AND the book exists AND is banned in Thailand, it is not necessarily because it would cause social unrest in this country. It could just as well be that the Government of Laos would consider it worthy of a Declaration of War! Pawyi Lee

[Khmu]

Old post but I found it interesting because I was looking for Chu State and Austroasiatic correlation. Anyways that thing about Cheaung being Khmer is false at least from that story. From a conversation I had with an anthropologist named Frank Proschan, Cheaung was a name used by many and even Khom was what Frank called a floating ethnonym. I might be a little biased since I am Khmu but I believe him to be Khmu because of all the documents I've read including http://sealang.net/a...18-19:14-34.pdf and the fact that Khmers have never spoken about him. There's even a Khmu named after Cheaung, the Khmu Cheaung but like I said before, he could be more than one person but that story above specifically, I believe is the Khmu Cheuang.

[koatl]

Hello,

 

I am finishing an online Flash strategy game about Warring States Period. There are two maps, the main one with the Seven Kingdoms, and the other, which should be smaller and serve more like a tutorial, is about unifying the Nanzhao kingdom. (I chose the Nanzhao kingdom because it's close to China.) My problem is that I didn't find any sufficiently detailed map which would help me recognize individual territories of the kingdom, not to mention to locate individual warring tribes. Maybe such map doesn't even exist?

 

I divided my map arbitrary by using rivers as a hint. See the picture - the red lines inside the kingdom map are made by me. How would you name individual territories and where would you place individual tribes? I need 3-6 of them.

Of course, there will be no terrain map in the game. It'll look like in the prequel which was about unifying Japan: http://www.thunderbi...mes/two-powers/

 

Historical accuracy is not neccessary here - it's just a Flash game. I just have no idea how to name the territories I created, and I need to name all of them. Can you help me please? Perhaps using a mix of historical and geographical names...

 

 

 

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