42 replies to this topic

[Wú Fēi]

I just re-entered again (i shall not do it again, very time-consuming). Please try again. There is corruption in copying over chinese characters. If you cant, then i will delete them to prevent confusion in this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It works well now, thank you.

Your translation is excellent.

I just add one more for "话" as "一席话", e.g. "闻君一席话，胜读十年书".

[Wú Fēi]

The last part of 量词 I can post.

========================
List of the 量词 in common use
========================
Format:
Name in Simplified Character/Traditional Character, Pin Yin;
Sense (C=Commendatory, D=Derogatory, N=Neutral, X=No certain sense);
W (Written Language)/S (Spoken Language)/ B (Both);
Using Environment;
Samples.
========================
间/閒, Jian1;
X;
W, B;
For space or location like a room, which is usually small in concept;
一间教室 (a classroom), 一间办公室 (an office).

所/所, Suo3;
X;
B;
For space or location as a whole building;
一所房子 (a house), 一所别墅 (a villa), 一所小学 (an elementary school).

双/雙, Shuang1;
X;
S;
For pairs;
一双鞋 (a pair of shoes), 一双筷子 (a pair of chopsticks), 一双手 (a pair of hands).

对/對, Dui4;
C, X;
S;
For pairs and couples, which are usually be matched well;
一对耳环 (a pair of earrings), 一对鸳鸯/情侣 (a couple of mandarin ducks/lovers).
(Note: "一对冤家" or "冤家"=a couple of foes, sometimes are used to describe a couple of devoted lovers who won't part from each other but with ceaseless conflict or squabble.)

副/副, Fu4;
X;
W;
For pairs or sets; For what are shown on faces.
一副手套 (a pair of gloves), 一副筷子 (a pair of chopsticks), 一副扑克 (a set of pokers with all 54 cards), 一副沮丧的表情 (an expression of despondence).

阵/陣, Zhen4;
X, D;
S, B;
For periods of time which the stages that actions or things undergo;
一阵风 (a blast), 一阵雨 (a shower), 一阵叫嚷 (roar for a period).
(Note: If "雨"/rain is not a shower but raining for a longer period as drencher, or just a general mention of rain, it could be "场" as the 量词 for it.)

顿/頓, Dun4;
X, D;
B;
For times or periods not long;
一顿饭 (a meal), 一顿毒打 (beating-up), 一顿叫嚷 (roar).

发/發, Fa1;
X;
W;
The unit of bullets and cannon-shells and missiles, etc. which could be shot from weapons;
一发子弹 (a bullet).

颗/顆, Ke1;
X;
S, B;
For solid things which are not big;
一颗珠子 (a bead), 一颗牙齿 (a tooth), 一颗心 (a heart).

手/手, Shou3;
X, D;
W;
For handwriting, or tactics and tacts and so on, which seem to be controlled in hands;
一手好字 (nice-looking/presentable handwriting), 一手准备 (preparation), 一手妙计 (a clever trick/stratagem).

棵/棵, Ke1;
X;
S, B;
For individual plants;
一棵树 (a tree), 一棵卷心菜 (a cabbage), 一棵栋梁 (a people who plays a role as that ridgepole playing for a house/structure).

根/根, Gen1;
X;
S;
For wooden sticks, or solid piece and strand, etc.;
一根棍子 (a stick), 一根木头 (a stick of wood), 一根绳 (a strand), 一根电线 (a wire).

家/家, Jia1;
C, X;
W, B;
For locations as operational places;
一家旅馆 (a hotel), 一家饭店 (a restaurant), 一家船厂 (a dockyard).

把/把, Ba3;
X;
S, B;
For things with handles, or that could be held in a hand;
一把伞 (an umbrella), 一把刀 (a knife), 一把盐 (a handful of of salt).

柄/柄, Bing3;
X;
W;
For things with obvious handles;
一柄斧子 (an ax), 一柄锄头 (a hoe).

[qrasy]

Yun said the right.
Actually in Centerian there are no uncountable nouns at all. We always can find a "Range" for classifying nouns, such as "piece" in "a piece of paper". The Range here as "piece" is called as "量词/Liang4 Ci2". It may be the features of the noun, or the status of something, or a location for an event, etc. Those Liu Ce mentioned as "a, an, the" are called in text books as "冠词", which are never used in Centerian.
It is said that 量词 is a philologic feature of Han-Tibetan family.

Hm.. A lot of 量词 is found in Southeast Asian languages.
I want to know how classifier was used in Classical Chinese? Many of the classifiers must have been replaced by 个, a generic classifier in Mandarin.

I notice in poems, 一江春水, 一人
一江春水, 江 is a noun used to classify river.
一人 This is similar to Indonesian, which doesn't have any classifier added for human since 'human' is already a unit classifier in Indonesian.

Edited by qrasy, 25 July 2005 - 09:42 AM.

[naruwan]

I have read many linguistic paper on how the Chinese Classifiers were developed. The Huaxia language originally didn't need classifiers. Classifier is a Altaic influence. The use of classifiers intensified after the North South era.

[qrasy]

I have read many linguistic paper on how the Chinese Classifiers were developed.  The Huaxia language originally didn't need classifiers.  Classifier is a Altaic influence.  The use of classifiers intensified after the North South era.

I want to know where you got the source.

Altaic (Mongolian, Turk, Manchurian) do not have classifier don't they?
Japanese, or Korean also don't seem to have but sometimes they are forced by Chinese to do so.
Did you mean 'Austric' (Southeast Asian)??
'Austric' means: Thai-Kadai+Hmong-Mien+Austroasiatic+Austronesian.

Don't all Sino-Tibetan languages have classifiers? It seems that classifiers are even older than even tones?

[naruwan]

I want to know where you got the source.

Altaic (Mongolian, Turk, Manchurian) do not have classifier don't they?
Japanese, or Korean also don't seem to have but sometimes they are forced by Chinese to do so.
Did you mean 'Austric' (Southeast Asian)??
'Austric' means: Thai-Kadai+Hmong-Mien+Austroasiatic+Austronesian.

Don't all Sino-Tibetan languages have classifiers? It seems that classifiers are even older than even tones?

http://www.isst.edu....th-y92n10-4.pdf

This is my source. And you are right, I had it opposite. It's the otherway around. Han language was more similar to Altaic languages, then shifted away.

[nishishei]

The classifiers (counters) are different for different dialects.

For example, in Shanghainese we have the 万用量词 "all-purpose counter" “只” (pronounced like Hanyu Pinyin "ze").
In Shanghainese we can say: 一只桥、一只笔、一只大象、一只面孔（脸）、一只教室、一只电视机、一只车子、一只飞机、一只船、一只毛病、一只主意、一只窗门、一只灯、一只床、一只房间、一只楼房、一只台子、一只学堂、一只猪猡、一只鸟、一只电话、一只手、一只眼睛、一只事体、等等

As you can see above, the Shanghainese 只 is far far more all-purpose/generic than Mandarin's 个.

Of course we can also be more specific and say: 一部汽车 (a vehicle of car) or 一台电视机 (a set of television), but usually we don't.

Basically, in Shanghainese everything (any object, idea, state, or living thing except "people") can use the 只 counter. For people though, we must say 一个人 (people counter: 个, pronounced like Hanyu Pinyin "e"). All other counters are pretty much optional except for certain inherently "uncountable" (ambiguous) things such as water. What is deemed ambiguous (water, paper, tea, beer/wine) in Shanghainese corresponds almost exactly with English.

[tongyan]

The classifiers (counters) are different for different dialects.

For example, in Shanghainese we have the 万用量词 "all-purpose counter" “只” (pronounced like Hanyu Pinyin "ze").
In Shanghainese we can say: 一只桥、一只笔、一只大象、一只面孔（脸）、一只教室、一只电视机、一只车子、一只飞机、一只船、一只毛病、一只主意、一只窗门、一只灯、一只床、一只房间、一只楼房、一只台子、一只学堂、一只猪猡、一只鸟、一只电话、一只手、一只眼睛、一只事体、等等

As you can see above, the Shanghainese 只 is far far more all-purpose/generic than Mandarin's 个.

does shanghainese also use the 只 counter in instances such as "这只裤子是我的" or
"那只车是他的" ?

[tongyan]

匹/匹, Pi1;
X, D;
W, B;
For individual animals could be considered for a single.
一匹马 (a horse), 一匹狼 (a wolf).
(Note: Nowadays "匹" is also an available measurement unit for cloths. "一匹"="? metres".)

i remember when i went to school we used 疋 for cloth and 匹 for horses but maybe it was just our teacher. i know everyone uses 匹 for both cloth and horses.

[nishishei]

does shanghainese also use the 只 counter in instances such as "这只裤子是我的" or
"那只车是他的" ?

Yeah.

This = 搿只/迪只 getze, dietze
That = 伊只/哎只 itze, eitze

This (person) = 搿个(搿儿)/迪个 ger, diere
That (person) = 伊个/哎个 ire, eire

And 车 by itself is always 车子, never 车 (shanghainese is more polysyllabic because it has less tones, and less unique syllables).

[qrasy]

What I notice from Hakka:
Animal and Human all are classified in 'tsak' (don't seem to be 只). (It's often laughed by other language speakers.)

http://www.isst.edu....th-y92n10-4.pdf

This is my source.  And you are right, I had it opposite.  It's the otherway around.  Han language was more similar to Altaic languages, then shifted away.

By the way I want to know where you got the Linguistic source. I don't see anywhere in this document that points to linguistics.
Japanese language: one of my most uncomfortable point is that:
'Not' is put last in verb. I don't know Korean and Mongolian but I guess it's also like that. I could not believe if Chinese was once using 'not' as ending.
Using 'not' as ending seem to me as a question (used like this in Indonesian).

There are some instances that Indonesian become no need of classifier.
Words which acts by itself as classifier.
Example: orang (human), while it itself is the classifier for humans
It's as funny as 一人人 to add classifier in front of itself.
Time Units
Example: tahun (year), bulan (month), minggu/pekan (week)
I wonder why Chinese use classifier in some time units.
(I know the reason of the months is to avoid the confusion of e.g. Second Month with 2 Months, I've heard that Japanese also have this kind of word. But for 'week', 'hour' is quite strange. I think there should be no need for that)

Classifiers are very consistent in Thai (2 classifiers), quite consistent in Vietnamese (several classifiers), but are very inconsistent in Indonesian, Chinese languages, Mon-Khmer languages, etc.

Edited by qrasy, 27 July 2005 - 12:11 AM.

[nishishei]

Japanese language: one of my most uncomfortable point is that:
'Not' is put last in verb. I don't know Korean and Mongolian but I guess it's also like that. I could not believe if Chinese was once using 'not' as ending.

In Korean I believe (stress I believe) the negative particle is usually put in the front of the verb as well (like Chinese). I believe the negative particle at the end of the sentence in Chinese only applies to questions.

For example, "did not go to China." --> Chungkuk-ey an kassta.
Where "an" is the negative particle, ta is the dummy verb (kind of like "da" in Japanese, but not copula), kass is "went" (ss is the past tense), -ey is the direction postposition particle (equivalent to Japanese -he/e).

Ask Gubook.

[tongyan]

What I notice from Hakka:
Animal and Human all are classified in 'tsak' (don't seem to be 只). (It's often laughed by other language speakers.)

what reason leads you to believe that it doesn't seem to be 只 ? how do you pronounce 只 in hakka? it sounds similar to the cantonese pronunciation of 只 which is "zek"