175 replies to this topic

[Jiang Ziya]

We all know that China had lost a large amount of territory during the Qing, lets discuss. Personal, I resent the fact that China handed Outer Manchuria to Russia for nothing in return from the Treaty of Aigun. And in 1911 Outer Mongolia became independence from China and again Russian interference. I'm not trying to be too nationalistic or anything, just something I resent that China had to be humiliated so much in the past. China would have been so much different today if they were still part of Zhongguo. Let's discuss people.

[Mynheer Peeperkorn]

We all know that China had lost a large amount of territory during the Qing, lets discuss. Personal, I resent the fact that China handed Outer Manchuria to Russia for nothing in return from the Treaty of Aigun. And in 1911 Outer Mongolia became independence from China and again Russian interference. I'm not trying to be too nationalistic or anything, just something I resent that China had to be humiliated so much in the past. China would have been so much different today if they were still part of Zhongguo. Let's discuss people.

how would it have made a difference if China still had those territories? I mean, what benefit would China have gained if they kept them? Outer Mongolia is really poor, is it not? So does Outer Manchuria have a lot of natural resources that would have benefited China or something? I remember reading that Manchuria has a lot of natural resources, but even Harbin is freakin cold. I can't imagine how cold it is in outer Manchuria and thus cannot imagine that many people would actually want to live there.

[naruwan]

We all know that China had lost a large amount of territory during the Qing, lets discuss. Personal, I resent the fact that China handed Outer Manchuria to Russia for nothing in return from the Treaty of Aigun. And in 1911 Outer Mongolia became independence from China and again Russian interference. I'm not trying to be too nationalistic or anything, just something I resent that China had to be humiliated so much in the past. China would have been so much different today if they were still part of Zhongguo. Let's discuss people.

just wanna say I haven't seen this kind of great Avartar on CHF in a long while

[Jiang Ziya]

how would it have made a difference if China still had those territories? I mean, what benefit would China have gained if they kept them? Outer Mongolia is really poor, is it not? So does Outer Manchuria have a lot of natural resources that would have benefited China or something? I remember reading that Manchuria has a lot of natural resources, but even Harbin is freakin cold. I can't imagine how cold it is in outer Manchuria and thus cannot imagine that many people would actually want to live there.

These two regions contain many natural resources plus living space for the already overwhelming population growth. The more the natural resources, the less China has to spend on trade, also Outer Manchuria has a coast which can provide more trade and aquaculture. Outer Mongolia has rich mineral resources, and copper, coal, molybdenum, tin, tungsten, and gold account for a large part of industrial production. How can anyone say there is not benefit in China having these two regions?

just wanna say I haven't seen this kind of great Avartar on CHF in a long while

Haha

Edited by Jiang Ziya, 20 May 2007 - 09:16 AM.

[galvatron prime]

I can say losing outer Manchuria mean China fail to contain Japan in Sea of Japan and Strait Of Tatar ,what are China lose is Russia and Japan gain ,however Mongol and Tungus speaker have benefit from these plus The Russia created a "Jewish homeland "in Outer Manchuria .

[fcharton]

We all know that China had lost a large amount of territory during the Qing, lets discuss. Personal, I resent the fact that China handed Outer Manchuria to Russia for nothing in return from the Treaty of Aigun. And in 1911 Outer Mongolia became independence from China and again Russian interference. I'm not trying to be too nationalistic or anything, just something I resent that China had to be humiliated so much in the past. China would have been so much different today if they were still part of Zhongguo. Let's discuss people.

I suppose you can find this attitude everywhere, in every time and every country. Old Brits and French lamenting on the loss of their empires, Germans yearning for their Greater Germany, complete with Austria, Gdansk, Sudetenland, and the Volga region, Russians thinking about the good old years of the soviets, and Serbs of Yugoslavia, and Japanese of the old times... and... the list is probably endless...

Those who agree with you will call you a patriot, those who disagree will see you as an imperialist (or even worse words).

So what is there to discuss? (can't help but notice that you just stated your opinion)

Francois

[DaMo]

I don't think those areas are particularly helpful as far as population growth is concerned. Heck, even the Russians are not too crazy about living there. I mean, that's raw area, but what about livable space? If you see China's population density by location, there are vast expanses of presently Chinese territory that are barely inhabited as of the moment. Only things I can think about in terms of usefulness would be natural resources and strategic importance, such as access to the Sea of Japan in the case of Haishenwei.

[kzhang]

We all know that China had lost a large amount of territory during the Qing, lets discuss. Personal, I resent the fact that China handed Outer Manchuria to Russia for nothing in return from the Treaty of Aigun. And in 1911 Outer Mongolia became independence from China and again Russian interference. I'm not trying to be too nationalistic or anything, just something I resent that China had to be humiliated so much in the past. China would have been so much different today if they were still part of Zhongguo. Let's discuss people.

It certainly is something difficult for me to accept that the Qing dynasty squandered away the two valuable regions of Outer Manchuria, Sakhalin & Outer Mongolia. Outer Manchuria is known to have vast oil reserves and a very strategic access to the East Sea which would provide maritime economy. Sakhalin, also known as KuYe in Mandarin, would be a good maritime base for fishing industry and counter Japanese supremacy in East Sea. Outer Mongolia is known to be rich in a variety of minerals. All these are certainly reasons why China should not have signed the unequal treaty with Russia.

I personally feel that the Russians should hand back these regions to the Chinese. They have taken advantage of the Chinese when China was "the sick man of Asia" and it is only fair for them to give back what was taken away from China by them.

China has been actively developing cross border trade with Russian Far East (Outer Manchuria) and has been sustaining the economy of that region. In other words, they have been taking care of the region more than the Russians actually do. However, Moscow is in fear that the Chinese diaspora in the Russian Far East region would spark Chinese irredentism (take back of region on basis of ethnic majority), so they are trying to get more Slaves from other parts of Russia to migrate into the Far East region, but to their dismay not many are willing to do so. The Russians have imposed visa for travel between Outer and Inner Manchuria and also imposed a tax on trade between the two regions although most of Outer Manchuria supplies come from China. I view this as Moscow's plans to diminish Outer Manchuria's close links with China. However, this only makes life harder for residents of Outer Manchuria.

According to some studies, the Chinese government is not in a hurry or desperate state to get back Outer Manchuria & Sakhalin(KuYe) from Russia because they are confident they will eventually get it back with the continuous weakening of Russia's economic/global supremacy. For the time being the Chinese are taking advantage of Putin's desire to be Sino friendly because of China's booming economy. This allows them to have a stronger presence in the UN Security Council as the Russians will be backing them most of the time. The Chinese also would want Russian oil to keep flowing into energy hungry China.

Hopefully the day that Outer Manchuria, Sakhalin(KuYe) & Outer Mongolia would re-unite back with China will come soon. It would definitely serve as a great pride boost for all Chinese people!

[Zorigo]

We all know that China had lost a large amount of territory during the Qing,

first you should put the description of of word "China" for better understanding each other. As I read, I understood you meant China as China of Han Chinese.

from other point of view,
1. Instead of complaining, China should be more thankful to Manchus of Qing Empire for adding adding vast territories which was beyond dream of Chinese of Ming State .

2. When Qing Empire collapsed, normally there supposed to be many states of Han Chinese, Mongolian, Uigur, Tibetan, Korean and Manchu.
British Empire disintegrated into many states like India, Pakistan and so on. Yugoslavia and Soviet Union became many different state. According to this logic, China did not lost anything. But loss will come. Last remaining "prison of nations" in the world is Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó (PRC) and Russian Federation (RF). These two, for sure will collapse sooner or later. Any dynasty lasted only few hundred years.


- When was Qing dynasty officially ceased to exist? Date please
- When is the date of official establishment of Republic of China? January 1, 1912
- What is date of establishment of People's Republic of China? On October 1, 1949 Mao Zedong proclaimed the People's Republic of China
Am I right?
-

Edited by Zorigo, 24 January 2008 - 04:10 AM.

[Zorigo]

Hopefully the day that Outer Manchuria, Sakhalin(KuYe) & Outer Mongolia would re-unite back with China will come soon. It would definitely serve as a great pride boost for all Chinese people!

why China need to have them? just for pride boost for all Chinese ( Han right?) people? Is it really pride boost or greed?

[DaMo]

1. Instead of complaining, China should be more thankful to Manchus of Qing Empire for adding adding vast territories which was beyond dream of Chinese of Ming State .

Indeed, modern China would be far smaller had it not been for the Qing.

[大泽升龙]

1. Instead of complaining, China should be more thankful to Manchus of Qing Empire for adding adding vast territories which was beyond dream of Chinese of Ming State .

I can see CCP uses same strategy to convince its people that if there was no CCP there was no new China.

[大泽升龙]

I don't see any reason why you cannot go to Outer Manchuria and make a living there. I think it is foreseeable in the very near future that there will be another wave of Chinese emigration to far east Russia, not to take their land but to marry their women since the sex ratio in modern China is heavily skewed. Russian can just make up the complement.

Edited by 大泽升龙, 24 January 2008 - 12:16 PM.

[DaMo]

Somehow, this bit about women as fit to be "taken" like land bothers me.

Point is, we can't turn back time. There's no reason for China to be any more deserving of irredentist acquisitions than any other nation - and I assure you, there is no shortage of other nations with vocal irredentists. Nations cannot just go about claiming past imperial possessions.

[Yun]

If the ROC were not mired in political infighting and civil war during the late 1910s and early 1920s, it could have stood a chance at conquering Mongolia before the Soviet Red Army established itself there. So there is no need to assume that Mongolia was irrevocably 'lost' to the ROC from 1911.

For example, if Xu Shuzheng's 'reconquest' of Mongolia in 1919 had received reinforcements that enabled it to avoid being forced out by the Russian warlord Ungern von Sternberg in 1921, then Mongolia might have become permanently a part of the ROC. Also, when the Soviet Union defeated von Sternberg and backed the Mongolian People's Party to found a new independent Mongolian regime in 1921, the Xu Shichang presidency of the ROC was immobilized by factional rivalries and unable to intervene. When the Mongolian People's Republic was proclaimed in November 1924, the ROC government was likewise in the midst of the Second Zhili-Fengtian War and the aftermath of the Beijing Coup. No attempt was made by the major northern military factions to invade and reoccupy Mongolia during the crucial window of 1921-1924 - they were too busy fighting one another. So I see no point in blaming the fall of the Qing government for the long-term independence of Mongolia. In reality the ROC government had a chance to reverse the situation during the collapse of the Russian Empire, but failed to exploit it.