42 replies to this topic

[ren]

Yeah, it's pretty sad in that there are so many Chinese tourists going to Europe to vacation because of the preservation of various local cultures, and yet they don't seem to realize that they have that at home. They tend to think of a standard culture and language in their backyard.

Anyway, which do I think will go extinct? Your classification is not accurate, which relates to what the answer is. The real languages in danger are those too small and or have no metropolitan/culture center. The real small ones are tongues such as Danzhou, spoken in a small region in Hainan, which seems to be a relic of pre-Minnan Sinitic. There's another unclassified/not clearly classified "dialect" in Guangxi, and something called "Waxiang" (?) in western Hunan, as well as local patois in southern Hunan. There is the Hui language(s) of Anhui south of the Yangtze.

Further, Min and Wu are merely branches.
Min is said to have 5, and besides the well-known "Northern Min"/Fuzhou, now called Min Dong/Eastern Min I think, and Minnan/Southern Min, the 3 other ones will likely all die out in decades. On eof these 3, Putian/Puxian, seems to be a creole of Minnan and Minzhong, so I don't know if it can be counted as a language.
Wu seems to have mutually unintelligible languages, the northern being the most famous and numerous. The western one is basically only spoken in rural regions, and that is already half gone.

As for Hakka, it seems to be a variant of southern Gan, as claimed by Sagart in a study, meaning that they are mutually intelligble.

[xng]

From personal first hand experience in southern Fujian, most people below 35 tended to prefer talking int he more "proper" national language, Mandarin.
So, I project Southern Min to die out within 1 generation in the metropolitan areas, since I've already met kids who can't speak a word of their parents native tongue.

It may be true that minnan is dying out in singapore due to the onslaught of mandarin and the government promotion of using only mandarin and english and also the blocking of 'dialects' shows.

But it is not true in taiwan and malaysia. Taiwan is producing popular taiwanese shows and minnan songs are quite popular. Even taiwanese singer Zhang Hui Mei can sing minnan songs even though she is native taiwanese.

In Malaysia recently, the government has been broadcasting taiwanese minnan shows rather than being dubbed in mandarin.

As long as there is an anchor for minnan in Taiwan, cantonese in Hong Kong, wu in shanghai. I don't see these groups vanishing soon. The same can't be said for the rest.

When I was young, my government schools discourage us from using 'dialects' as something local or inferior. But from my research, the southern chinese languages are the original form of chinese compared to mandarin.

Mandarin is also a local language to the northern chinese.

[Yongwoni GOD]

So you see, preserving or perpetuating a language can be difficult not really because of the "how", but because making an effort to do so requires answering the "what" and "why"? Most HK people know their Cantonese is not "tse-ang" (proper), but how many really care to change it? And thanks to popular entertainment, the whole Sei-yap dialect sounds like a joke to them. I've encountered a Cantonese nationalist (independence for HK!) in another who wants a phonetic Cantonese script, but can't address which Cantonese dialect should be the nationalist one (surely not Guangzhou mainland one!)

umm do you mean 'tsing yam' 正音? Actually the media is strongly promoting 正音 in recent years. All news reports and pop music are supposed to be in standard pronunciations. Also there are several TV and radio programs which teaches standard pronunciation. Schools are also implementing Standard Cantonese pronunciations within the syllabus of Chinese classes.

I wholeheartedly agree that mentality is a huge obstacle in keeping many languages such as Minnan or Wu alive. In the end, it's up to the next generation to continue using their language, and if they are continuously fed this image of Mandarin being the most culturally superior/elegant/modern/pretty/worth learning language and that the "dialects" are crude/worthless/ugly-sounding/uneducated/rural/poor, then many languages could see extinction in maybe a generation or two. I don't Minnan will face extinction on Taiwan, but I have a friend from Xiamen who can't understand (much less speak) a word of Minnan Chinese. He identifies solely with Mandarin as his heritage language, and he sees "dialects" as kind of backwards or silly. Of course, this is an extreme example, but still, it shows how much Mandarin has penetrated through the younger generation on the mainland.

Here's a question: What main branch of Chinese (or subbranch) do you see going extinct first?
Main branches of Chinese:

Mandarin (lol)

Yue- Cantonese, Toisanese, most of western Guangdong and eastern Guangxi, overseas communities in SE Asia and around the world

Wu- Shanghai, Suzhou, south end of Jiangsu, most of Zhejiang

Hakka- northeastern Guangdong, southern Jiangxi, western Fujian, parts of Taiwan, pockets here and there, a few overseas communities

Minnan- southern Fujian, eastern Guangdong, most of Taiwan, Hainan islands, overseas communities in SE Asia and around the world

Jin- Shanxi, central Inner Mongolia

Gan- Jiangxi

Xiang- Hunan

Minbei/Mindong- northern part of Fujian, Matsu islands

I think Xiang- Old Xiang is pretty moribund, and New Xiang seems to be like Southwestern Mandarin. Then again, Minbei/Mindong could be too.

Gan seems to be extinct first,, its one of the smallest groups + the Gan language is not popular in the popular culture.

[lifezard]

Maybe it is Ngin instead of Yin as they sound similar and I am not a hakka speaker.
How come I am the only one contributing to this thread besides thread starter ? What about the others ?

lol missing me already?... (joke! ok i know my opinions are not as expertised as qrasys) .. generally, it can be 'nyin' or 'ngin'
but i think 'yin' is acceptable too

Example of Hakka features "older" than Cantonese? Usually Hakka gives the impression that they are "newer" because of some Mandarin-like feature.

like? in grammar or vocab? .. it is a common conception that being closer to mandarin means "newer".. which might not necessarily be the case

Yes, I think superficially, Hakka seems like it's a step closer to Mandarin than Cantonese. I lost the page where I read about Hakka being older than Cantonese (it wasn't by much) so don't quote me on that yet (sorry). However, I think it was some kind of page that talked about possible origins of Hakka among the southern Chinese or something like that. I always hear different versions of stories about the origin of Hakka people, and I'm not sure exactly which is most accurate; for example I thought Hakka came from Shandong somewhere in the obscure past, but Wikipedia says Henan or Shanxi. Either way, genetically, I don't think they found particular evidence that Hakka are any more "Northerner" than Punti/Hoklo peoples, which makes sense since my greatgrandfather was Hakka and he didn't look northern Chinese.

i believe its the preservation of voiceless bilibials "p" in some words instead of developing into labial-dental "f" like cantonese that is older for hakka.. and if u compare to standard cantonese ..some choice of words are definitely older.. thou not necessary if one compares to other yue dialects

It may be true that minnan is dying out in singapore due to the onslaught of mandarin and the government promotion of using only mandarin and english and also the blocking of 'dialects' shows.

But it is not true in taiwan and malaysia. Taiwan is producing popular taiwanese shows and minnan songs are quite popular. Even taiwanese singer Zhang Hui Mei can sing minnan songs even though she is native taiwanese.

In Malaysia recently, the government has been broadcasting taiwanese minnan shows rather than being dubbed in mandarin.

As long as there is an anchor for minnan in Taiwan, cantonese in Hong Kong, wu in shanghai. I don't see these groups vanishing soon. The same can't be said for the rest.

When I was young, my government schools discourage us from using 'dialects' as something local or inferior. But from my research, the southern chinese languages are the original form of chinese compared to mandarin.

Mandarin is also a local language to the northern chinese.

u exagerrate the rate of demise of hokkien in singapore.. at least the male population it wouldn't die out that easily...

and .. i dun encourage the broadcast of taiwanese langauge shows either... it is just another foreign langauge in my opinion.. (have been in taiwan for the last 2mths, so i definitely stand by my words) ... there are too many different terms from our beloved hokkien (at least 30-40%, even more than xiamen, though it s not hard to pick up after a while..

as for chang hui mei.. u will be astonished by the number or aboriginal and mainlander people (not to mention hakkas) in taiwan that speak perfect minnan readily.. so she s not really a surprise..i ve never hear her speak taiwanese btw .. did u?

[xng]

..i ve never hear her speak taiwanese btw .. did u?

She sang "Sim Su Sia Lang Cai" in a concert in Hong Kong with perfect pronounciation.

However, when she sang Sam Hui's cantonese song "Mung" (dream), there were tone and pronounciation errors.

[qrasy]

Basically, it is too idealistic to expect to preserve each and every single variant of Chinese that ever sprang up

My friends from mainland speak different dialects... I am thinking that most variants in metropolis would not extinct... might be just twisted by Mandarin phonology.

as the short-sighted Chinese government now in exterminating variation

What I see is that many simplification of characters fits only Mandarin...
and they translate foreign names which will be nonsensical when it translates to Hong Kong Cantonese.

As for Hakka, it seems to be a variant of southern Gan, as claimed by Sagart in a study, meaning that they are mutually intelligble.

Maybe they form "dialect continuum"?

It may be true that minnan is dying out in singapore due to the onslaught of mandarin and the government promotion of using only mandarin and english and also the blocking of 'dialects' shows.

At least there are still some cities with strong Chinese dialect usage in Indonesia, e.g. Medan.

Mandarin is also a local language to the northern chinese.

It also "includes" local languages of e.g. Sichuanese.

umm do you mean 'tsing yam' 正音? Actually the media is strongly promoting 正音 in recent years. All news reports and pop music are supposed to be in standard pronunciations.

Most of pop music songs are not really in Standard pronunciations of ng-. That's because they have the word 愛 which sounds 'ngoi' instead of the "historically correct" 'oi'.

For your info, "unneccessary" ng- was once added to many things in Mandarin, e.g. 安徽 -> ngan hwei (in which "hwei" is like "hui" in modern Pinyin). And this Romanization presumably comes from Ming dynasty...

lol missing me already?... (joke! ok i know my opinions are not as expertised as qrasys)

I don't consider myself an expert.

.. generally, it can be 'nyin' or 'ngin'
but i think 'yin' is acceptable too

Well, I guess it will be some sort of 'lazy sound'..
what do you mean by acceptable? Well, I think it would be understandable if you just mispronounce one word slightly.

like? in grammar or vocab? .. it is a common conception that being closer to mandarin means "newer".. which might not necessarily be the case

Seems to be mostly based in pronunciations.
But certainly there's things that look "newer" in Cantonese e.g. the rhyme of 'an' in 新.

i believe its the preservation of voiceless bilibials "p" in some words instead of developing into labial-dental "f" like cantonese that is older for hakka..

That might be a common feature in Dabu Hakka, but in Meizhou Hakka we can notice pronunciations like 飯 = faan4 (Dabu: p'on4; possibly a small percentage of people got influenced by neighboring Hakka dialects and pronounce as fon4).

Edited by qrasy, 11 June 2007 - 09:01 AM.

[lifezard]

She sang "Sim Su Sia Lang Cai" in a concert in Hong Kong with perfect pronounciation.

However, when she sang Sam Hui's cantonese song "Mung" (dream), there were tone and pronounciation errors.

i mean speak... many singers can sing in taiwanese... but speaking wise ..

That might be a common feature in Dabu Hakka, but in Meizhou Hakka we can notice pronunciations like 飯 = faan4 (Dabu: p'on4; possibly a small percentage of people got influenced by neighboring Hakka dialects and pronounce as fon4).

but even in meizhou, there is p'ui/p'i (肥） and pi (飞） pot p'iang (发病）etc ... of coz dapu has more ..

Well, I guess it will be some sort of 'lazy sound'..
what do you mean by acceptable? Well, I think it would be understandable if you just mispronounce one word slightly.

mean normally hakka speakers will accept it even if it s not correct

[Yongwoni GOD]

My friends from mainland speak different dialects... I am thinking that most variants in metropolis would not extinct... might be just twisted by Mandarin phonology.

What I see is that many simplification of characters fits only Mandarin...
and they translate foreign names which will be nonsensical when it translates to Hong Kong Cantonese.

Guangzhou Cantonese is sort of twisted with the overwhelming prescence of cheap northern labourers... Their choice of vocabulary is also very mandarin influenced which is sort of crude... Hong Kong Cantonese preserves older vocabulary better, but the influence of Mandarin is inevitable.

Most of pop music songs are not really in Standard pronunciations of ng-. That's because they have the word 愛 which sounds 'ngoi' instead of the "historically correct" 'oi'.

For your info, "unneccessary" ng- was once added to many things in Mandarin, e.g. 安徽 -> ngan hwei (in which "hwei" is like "hui" in modern Pinyin). And this Romanization presumably comes from Ming dynasty...

Confusion in Standard Cantonese ng- initials are present even in older generations. This is possibly because ng- initials are generally unnecessary in Gwongfu dialects where tone differentiations are sufficient. The media would 'standardise' speakers pronunciations to a limited extent, but only including it in syllabus would create a significant effect (which is what is happening now). However there are some 'anti-standard-pronunciation' activities occuring as well....

Well, I guess it will be some sort of 'lazy sound'..
what do you mean by acceptable? Well, I think it would be understandable if you just mispronounce one word slightly.

Well Standard Cantonese shows ny- to y- shifts as well, to the point that ny- is lost.

Seems to be mostly based in pronunciations.
But certainly there's things that look "newer" in Cantonese e.g. the rhyme of 'an' in 新.

That might be a common feature in Dabu Hakka, but in Meizhou Hakka we can notice pronunciations like 飯 = faan4 (Dabu: p'on4; possibly a small percentage of people got influenced by neighboring Hakka dialects and pronounce as fon4).

most cantonese dialects don't show the shift of -i to -a, only Gwongfu and surrounding YutHoi dialects do.

[qrasy]

i mean speak... many singers can sing in taiwanese... but speaking wise ..

I can sing in Cantonese because I know the phonemes, but I lack a lot of vocabulary to speak it normally.

but even in meizhou, there is p'ui/p'i (肥） and pi (飞） pot p'iang (发病）etc ... of coz dapu has more ..

I found considearble amount of words to have p/f pairs of pronunciation... so it's more like 白讀 vs 文讀.

mean normally hakka speakers will accept it even if it s not correct

So by "acceptable" you mean "comprehensible".

Confusion in Standard Cantonese ng- initials are present even in older generations. This is possibly because ng- initials are generally unnecessary in Gwongfu dialects where tone differentiations are sufficient. The media would 'standardise' speakers pronunciations to a limited extent, but only including it in syllabus would create a significant effect (which is what is happening now). However there are some 'anti-standard-pronunciation' activities occuring as well....

I don't think unnecessary or not is relevant, e.g. mixing up all the n- and l- still would not affect much on the understanding.
Many "Middle" generation HongKonger will add ng- to anything. The confusion is not only found in the youngest generation.
I think the Oldest generation (Grandpas/Grandmas) may not though n/l is most likely already gone.

One question to ask is how come, a long time ago, the Northern Mandarin adds ng- to so many things... I am speculating that the ng- loss was originally caused by adding ng- to everything.

Well Standard Cantonese shows ny- to y- shifts as well, to the point that ny- is lost.

ny- to y- is not seen in Hakka. But we can find it in Changsha and Qingdao..

most cantonese dialects don't show the shift of -i to -a, only Gwongfu and surrounding YutHoi dialects do.

So you see that it depends a lot on the dialect. Preserving just one for intelligible dialects means a very big lot of variations is gone.

[Fuyindefu]

I can sing in Cantonese because I know the phonemes, but I lack a lot of vocabulary to speak it normally.

I found considearble amount of words to have p/f pairs of pronunciation... so it's more like 白讀 vs 文讀.

So by "acceptable" you mean "comprehensible".

I don't think unnecessary or not is relevant, e.g. mixing up all the n- and l- still would not affect much on the understanding.
Many "Middle" generation HongKonger will add ng- to anything. The confusion is not only found in the youngest generation.
I think the Oldest generation (Grandpas/Grandmas) may not though n/l is most likely already gone.

One question to ask is how come, a long time ago, the Northern Mandarin adds ng- to so many things... I am speculating that the ng- loss was originally caused by adding ng- to everything.

ny- to y- is not seen in Hakka. But we can find it in Changsha and Qingdao..

So you see that it depends a lot on the dialect. Preserving just one for intelligible dialects means a very big lot of variations is gone.

Out of curiosity, what accent of Hakka do you speak, qrasy? I think my grandfather speaks Moiyen Hakka. How much is the internal variation among Hakka dialects?

[Tibet Libre]

I believe the other Chinese languages are done. Paraphrasing Talleyrand, it is only a question of the date Mandarin will totally rule.

[qrasy]

Out of curiosity, what accent of Hakka do you speak, qrasy? I think my grandfather speaks Moiyen Hakka.

Sorry, I don't speak Hakka.
My parents have different native languages which is why I speak neither.

How much is the internal variation among Hakka dialects?

I'm not sure.
I've heard that there are some that lost the medials (Shataukok), merge -m/-p with -n/-t (Xingning), preserves the zh/ch/sh consonants (Hailu), most have 6 but some have 5 or 7 tones, different degrees of vowel change, etc.

I was also told that Dabu Hakka word for "where" or something like that is very different from Meixian one.

I believe the other Chinese languages are done. Paraphrasing Talleyrand, it is only a question of the date Mandarin will totally rule.

It has already ruled now, isn't it?

[beanryu]

just record all the pronunciation for every word in each dialect, you got your language preserved.

most chinese dialects would die out... sad but inevitable.