140 replies to this topic

[DannyJo]

The Qing Dynasty is doomed to fall because It is a Non-Han Race/Empire and the Majority Han just want to get rid of it no matter what. The Hans couldn't accept a Manchus as their constitutional monarch in whatever terms.
though I alway thought that what if the last Qing Dynasty was a Han/ Yellow Emperor Empire...If the Empire is not as rotten to the point of despair or if the Dynasty promised to give back the adminstrative powers to the people in return for constitutional monarchy. Maybe the Revolutionary Powers of before 1911 will accept a settlement of constitutional monarchy as afterall the Monarchy is still Han and their own.

Quick question

Didn't Yuan Shi Kai, the Northern warlord, manage to have himself proclaimed Emperor?
If so did he take the "mandate of heaven" and should any restored monarchy be his descendents?

Apologies if I've remembered incorrectly

[Optimus]

about Yuan Shikai...

I read some books saying that Sun.Y.S Southern Interim Govt did offer the " Consistitutional Monarchy Throne" to Yuan when he was negoitating with the Republic Govt on behalf of the Qing Govt.
Sun say he can accept a Consistitutional Monarchy but only if Yuan take it, Not the Manchus.
Yuan refused the offer...believing that will amount to him betraying his Master the Qing in the eyes of the peoples and in his own belief...the time and moment for him to ascend the throne was not right. and he wanted to be a full-power ruling monarchy not a Consistitutional Monarch.

By 1915...when Yuan declared himself Emperor... he was demmed to have betrayed the Republic and the land for his selfish desire to be the Yellow Emperor thus losing the peoples'faith and trust in him and leading to a revolt soon after. and also he had lost the support of his trusted Generals and Beiying Troops which control many provinces and without them, he no longer had the machinery to control the country.

[Sephodwyrm]

Chinese would have a constitutional monarchy if we didn't lose the Sino Japanese War, and if that had happened, we wouldn't even have TI.

[Zuo Zongtang]

If China did become a constitutional monarchy, I highly doubt that the Emperor would be as powerless as the Japanese Emperor or the English Queen or even the Spanish King. Instead, the Emperor's powers would probably be equal to that of an English King during the 1600s-1700s. There is just not enough time to chip away the Emperor's power as there had been for Spain and England. The people themselves might not want their King, who would be almost an immortal figure, to be limited in his actions. If this democratization started after the Opium war, China could very well still be ruled by Manchus and miss all the political chaos of the 20th Century. Remember that the First English King was Norman, not Anglo. If the Manchus are willing to grant Han equal status, Eventually, the Manchus would become Han.

Edited by Zuo Zongtang, 02 December 2005 - 09:07 PM.

[caocao74]

Instead, the Emperor's powers would probably be equal to that of an English King during the 1600s-1700s.

The powers and prerogatives of the English monarchy were greatly transformed in this period, thanks to 1642-61, 1688 and 1714, so "equal" to which?.

[Zuo Zongtang]

The powers and prerogatives of the English monarchy were greatly transformed in this period, thanks to 1642-61, 1688 and 1714, so "equal" to which?.

I'm not an expert on English history, so I don't really know "which." I just know that back then, the King was the most powerful man in the country, and even after those reforms, the King still had plenty of power in his hands. I was refering to the general scope of things. The King will be the most authoritative figure in the country, and laws and policies will mostly be made by him, not the parliament.

[Hoa Phau]

if china became a constitutional monarchy, for me, i would rather imitate china like the vatican. voting instead of inheriting the title.

[Wujiang]

How about voting among the sons of the previous Emperor ?
I am going to guess that the princes would be praying they WON'T get voted on because it would be mean their private life would hence forth be non-existant. I mean, look at Prince Charles !!

[phoenix_bladen]

How about voting among the sons of the previous Emperor ?
I am going to guess that the princes would be praying they WON'T get voted on because it would be mean their private life would hence forth be non-existant. I mean, look at Prince Charles !!

well obviously if we were to continue the monarchy there would be massive reforms that would make it all that modern ........ like maybe allow the royal family to maintain a noraml citizen life style and abandon alot of old fashion stuff like euniches and like 1000 dishes for dinner....... ( i mean i think those kind of practices wouldn't be fitting for a modern world)

cause a monarchy could be good for china it could bring unity for this whole country and bring back tradition values and culture back it could promote our culture also ...

picture in the modern world the emperor could wear hanfu alot during cermemonies and show the rest of the world that chinese clothing isn't just qipao !

but yea everything would have to be more modernized and openess to change for a monarchy to be successful into the 20th and 2st century and beyond.

[thirdgumi]

cause a monarchy could be good for china it could bring unity for this whole country and bring back tradition values and culture back it could promote our culture also ...

It doesn't take a monarchy to do all those.

[snowybeagle]

cause a monarchy could be good for china it could bring unity for this whole country and bring back tradition values and culture back it could promote our culture also ...

I posted an answer to this before, I will summarise it again.

Given the numerous ethnic groups in China, which ethnic group should the monarchy come from?
Or should there be a royal family for each ethnic group?

Different ethic groups have different traditions, cultures and values. What traditional value and culture would the monarchy represent?

Could the children of the monarch intermarry with foreigners of very different outward appearances, and hence introduce potential heirs to the throne who do not resemble any of the ethnic groups of China?

[Wujiang]

It doesn't take a monarchy to do all those.

Actually, I think that if China was to have an Emperor again, I think he should would bring the kind of unity in which is more like the Pope than the Queen.

In addition, I actually believe that the old Manchu line is a nice choice to for the throne. Mainly because it of course would likely to have been already mixed with the Han group. And as time goes by, they might be able to impose different ethnic bloodlines into the royal line through arranged marriage (lets me honest, no royal marriage is non-political). So then he becomes the embodiment of all that is good in China. Both culturally and genetically (the more genetically diverse you are, the better you are)

Edited by Wujiang, 05 December 2005 - 06:53 AM.

[phoenix_bladen]

I posted an answer to this before, I will summarise it again.

Given the numerous ethnic groups in China, which ethnic group should the monarchy come from?
Or should there be a royal family for each ethnic group?

Different ethic groups have different traditions, cultures and values. What traditional value and culture would the monarchy represent?

Could the children of the monarch intermarry with foreigners of very different outward appearances, and hence introduce potential heirs to the throne who do not resemble any of the ethnic groups of China?

hmm if china was a monarchy then it probably wouldn't have become a multi ethnic state ........ i think it would be a han nation and everyone living there will just be recognized minorities........ IF the ching dynasty was still in power then i dunno ...... i don't see how the ching dynasty would have lasted into this day .......

[snowybeagle]

hmm if china was a monarchy then it probably wouldn't have become a multi ethnic state ........ i think it would be a han nation and everyone living there will just be recognized minorities........ IF the ching dynasty was still in power then i dunno ...... i don't see how the ching dynasty would have lasted into this day .......

I suspect if today's China was to become a Han monarchy, many of the regions of present day PRC would secede, even in areas where demographically ethnic Han are the majorities.

Why would ethnic minorities want to put up with having a Han emperor?

Hey, if the ethnic Han can have an emperor as symbolic head of state,
the Bai, the Zhuang, the Mongols etc., could demand a head of state from their ethnic group too - and the only way of course, is to have an independent state of their own.

BTW, I don't think the Cantonese would like the idea of a northerner, or even a Hokkien, to be the emperor.

In fact, I don't think any dialect group like the idea of an emperor from another dialect group.
Each dialect group within the ethnic Han group would demand to have the emperor come from their province.
Result : separatist movements.

Let's see what's left of China then ...

[Friend From Far]

If the Chinese have a constitutional monarchy, they were probably not allowed to enter the Forbidden City, the Summer Palace, the Summer Resort Palace in Chengde. The emperor will also maintain lots of palaces throughout the country. Imagine the tremendous costs. So much money for a symbolic function.

Better will be an elected head of state and government who is competent and worth the money.