140 replies to this topic

[snowybeagle]

And we will have a daughter of house Wu of marry the king of Shu Han.

I'm sure the entertainment and media industry would love it ... more subjects to gossip about ... especially when incidences of sordid extra-marital affairs appear.

[Prince of the South]

Fact is many modern royalties don't even fit this bill of yours.

Fact is, they do.

How can we tell? Should there be a "do you respect this person" vote? If so, what's the cutoff point? 100%

No need to vote, too troublesome. Just inculcate and drill in people's mind. over and over and over again. Think modern. Think technology. Just run advertisement campaigns over and over, expounding the goodness of your candidates. Use the media! tv, community services, internet, walk around neighbourhood! If you can get across "2 is enough", "courtesy is for you and me", mcdonalds and kfc into every household, you can get your handsome dude into their consumption too. easy.

If the office is hereditary, then they are not subjected to election, and thus do not have mandate.
Vested power in the modern world, where democracy is important, requires periodic validation, usually through the poll.

You can "kelong" the poll. Nothing is transparent. If you have worked in China before, you know connection is vital. Who needs to vote? (oops they do vote, for China idol....) Even in communist China no one can vote for democracy, so what is new? i don't see any difficulty, really. Who needs the people's voice when the government can do what they like in their tenure. Look at those democracies, they CAN vote, only once every how many years, and big policies and bills are introduced at once after every successful election campaign. Look at PAP of Singapore. If elections coming do you think they will increase your interest rates and give go ahead for casino, etc? No what you hear is upgrading upgrading upgrading.....that is when you have the say. After election, tata see you later in 4 years, now we increase GST, increase bus fare, uni fees etc etc etc.... that is when you regretted you voted for them, but then again got no choice....

Why? Why should the offspring of a non-Chinese father and Chinese princess be ineligible to succeed to the title?
That would be chauvinistic, not to mention racist, sexist, discriminatory against females.

Should there be a reason? When you have money and power, what you say count. Since it is a Chinese empire, royalty being Chinese is a no brainer.

Edited by Prince of the South, 16 August 2007 - 09:59 PM.

[Prince of the South]

QUOTE(Prince of the South @ Aug 17 2007, 10:14 AM)
And being King or Emperor is not a right but a privilege. If your dynasty produced useless descendants, they would be overthrown....

No need to be overthrown, just have a legislation to allow impeachment.

Anything also can, i can go with that. just have something there so the people can feel the government is doing the "right thing" Must keep the heartlanders happy, won't we?

[Richard Lim]

This thread seems to have only a very tedentious connection with ROC/PRC. Given that the discussion is mainly on speculations regarding the future (hence post 1997), I am moving it into General Discussion where it belongs.

[snowybeagle]

Fact is, they do.

Such as ...? Prince Charles? Prince William?

How can we tell? Should there be a "do you respect this person" vote? If so, what's the cutoff point? 100%

No need to vote, too troublesome. Just inculcate and drill in people's mind. over and over and over again. Think modern. Think technology. Just run advertisement campaigns over and over, expounding the goodness of your candidates. Use the media! tv, community services, internet, walk around neighbourhood! If you can get across "2 is enough", "courtesy is for you and me", mcdonalds and kfc into every household, you can get your handsome dude into their consumption too. easy.

That's what has been done in Singapore, and it doesn't win the establishment more respect ...
doesn't make the people more considerate ...
doesn't stop littering ...

The thing about *2 is enough* is economical - more well-off people just choose not to have more children so as not to cramp their lifestyle.

Should there be a reason? When you have money and power, what you say count. Since it is a Chinese empire, royalty being Chinese is a no brainer.

Yes, but the offspring of a non-Chinese father and a Chinese mother can be Chinese, not necessarily follow the nationality of the father.

After all, China is multi-ethnic. Being Chinese in a China is a *nationality*, not a race, not an ethnicity, not genetic.

[Prince of the South]

The thing about *2 is enough* is economical - more well-off people just choose not to have more children so as not to cramp their lifestyle.

That is beside the point. My point is we can exploit the media for its advantage of feeding propaganda to the public.

Yes, but the offspring of a non-Chinese father and a Chinese mother can be Chinese, not necessarily follow the nationality of the father.

After all, China is multi-ethnic. Being Chinese in a China is a *nationality*, not a race, not an ethnicity, not genetic.

Point taken. I suppose you can enlarge the criteria a bit. But having Chineseness (whatever that means) in the royalty must of vital importance. anyway, this is what if. Let the Chinese decide....if the day should come.....

[snowybeagle]

That is beside the point. My point is we can exploit the media for its advantage of feeding propaganda to the public.

But in this context, any fellow with money can hire a good publicity firm and drum up support to try to make himself "well-respected" ... the term you actually used.

The media has been exploited by politicians and movie/song industry and advertising companies to try to win support and patronage ... to a very successful extent.

But it has yet to actually make a person "well respected by the people" ...

Can you think of any?

The King of Thailand could be considered "well respected" by the Thais, but that is because he first had the office of the King to begin with, and then maintained the respect, with some help of the media.

No one has yet, depending on media alone, make himself "well respected by the people."

[Prince of the South]

To actually reflect that a person is really "well respected by the people", no the media will not do, you can "artificially" achieve that. But the vote system likewise cannot be a true measure of a person's respectability (popularity maybe) reflection.

Then how? what i believe is that if a person is "well respected by the people" is inherent in himself. Like Mother Theresa. Gandhi. Nelson Mandela. Thai King Bhumibol Adulyadej is a very good example. They just do the things they do and let their actions do the talking. If he is good, he is good, his fame will spread far and wide. (for example, google.com search, it spread by word of mouth, google founders never spent a cent in advertising. their product do the talking, look where are they now?)

Edited by Prince of the South, 16 August 2007 - 11:33 PM.

[snowybeagle]

Then how? what i believe is that if a person is "well respected by the people" is inherent in himself. Like Mother Theresa. Gandhi. Nelson Mandela. Thai King Bhumibol Adulyadej is a very good example. They just do the things they do and let their actions do the talking. If he is good, he is good, his fame will spread far and wide. (for example, google.com search, it spread by word of mouth, google founders never spent a cent in advertising. their product do the talking, look where are they now?)

Can anyone imagine well-respected figures such as Mother Theresa, Gandhi or Mandela campaigning to be a monarch?
Or if offered the ceremonial position of a monarch by supporters, can anyone imagine them accepting?

[Prince of the South]

Can anyone imagine well-respected figures such as Mother Theresa, Gandhi or Mandela campaigning to be a monarch?
Or if offered the ceremonial position of a monarch by supporters, can anyone imagine them accepting?

Why not ask the question if these type of well-respected people do appear in China in the future and if the Chinese are considering constitutional monarchy, will they be nominated / accepted as monarch?

Theresa, Gandhi and Mandela are used as examples to show we need not vote or market them as respected people, as they themselves earned it.

Edited by Prince of the South, 17 August 2007 - 03:25 AM.

[snowybeagle]

Can anyone imagine well-respected figures such as Mother Theresa, Gandhi or Mandela campaigning to be a monarch?
Or if offered the ceremonial position of a monarch by supporters, can anyone imagine them accepting?

Why not ask the question if these type of well-respected people do appear in China in the future and if the Chinese are considering constitutional monarchy, will they be nominated / accepted as monarch?

Theresa, Gandhi and Mandela are used as examples to show we need not vote or market them as respected people, as they themselves earned it.

If we take Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar as an indication, a well respected figure who accepts the crown to introduce monarchy into a democracy/republic would quickly lose the respect of the people.

As far as I can tell, the idea of constitutional monarchy/monarchies in China is not supported by Chinese nationals, who for most part did not like the idea.

This is the umpteenth time the idea has been mooted in CHF, and it has always been initiated by non-Chinese nationals.

If we really want to leave it to the Chinese nationals to decide these questions, then this thread can end here.

[Prince of the South]

I think the idea is revisited countless time by non-Chinese nationals because

- monarchy ended in China less than 100 years ago. compare to over 2000 years of imperial China history (up to Qin Shi Huang Di, you can go further...) some people find it interesting as monarchies are not a dead and buried system of government, so inevitably, the romantic notion of China as a monarchy keep hitting daylight

- socialism is new in China. the PRC is only formed in 1949. if we go by the last 2 cycles (Ming and Qing), perhaps it is still good for a couple of hundred years, and then who knows? would a monarchy resurface in such and such a situation, and hence this topic

- i guess not everyone in the world is a socialist, communist, republican, democrat, there are also royalist and monarchist. so this topic allow them, whether they are from China or not, to trash their ideas around within a public platform

- ask the topic starter why he initiated this discussion. for anything, it is actually an interesting topic

- i do recognised the fact a lot of Chinese are not in favour of a monarchy or a restoration of a monarchial system in China, but they are rather keen in Chinese histories, of which a large chunk is all about emperors so and so. look at the proliferation of drama series 贞观之治, 江山风雨情, 康熙王朝, 恭亲王, 少年天子之顺治王朝, and more interestingly, in my opinion, a series of lectures by noted historians 阎崇年's 正说清朝十二帝 and 明亡清兴六十年, 隋丽娟's 正说慈禧, 纪连海's 正说多尔衮 and 正说鳌拜 etc. and virtually all are PRC made.

Edited by Prince of the South, 17 August 2007 - 04:47 AM.

[snowybeagle]

I think the idea is revisited countless time by non-Chinese nationals because

One more reason: most non-Chinese nationals are divorced from the reality of actually living in China and having to personally bear the consequences should these fantasies become reality but not in the way they romanticised it.

While I'm sure even Chinese nationals themselves sometimes fantasize it, it's always an idealised version, with all the grimy undesirable elements in actual history ignored, a sanitised Disney cartoon version.

While generally harmless, if immature, it has in more than one instance escalated into ethnic/cultural chauvinism and munchkinism, which is not beneficial.

Whether it reveals an underlying subconscious attitude, or unwittingly encourages an ethnic/cultural chauvinistic attitude, it is not healthy and should be checked with some sharp doses of reality/realism.

Edited by snowybeagle, 17 August 2007 - 09:57 AM.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

During the late period of Qing dynasty, there was an attempted reform called "Wuxu" reform which attempted to model the government after that of Japan or England, where it became a constitutional monarchy. However, this attempt failed after Yuan Shikai betrayed Emperor Guangxu, and Empress Dowager Cixi had the gang of reformist executed and detained Emperor Guangxu.

Towards 1905, there were further attempt to try and make Qing a constitutional monarchy, but it was too late. By 1911, the revolution overthrew Qing dynasty and a republic was established by Sun Yat Sen.

Do you think republic was the inevitable process in chinese history? Which would you favour, a constitutional monarchy or a republic for China?

Monarchy? who is suppossed to be the monarch the Qing or the Ming? or maybe Dr. Sun Yetsen can be the modern monarch?

China monarchy does not have a stable line that can legitimately be consider ruler of China, too many Kings or monarchs have already been replace and overthrown the blood line is lost.

[Kscnoko]

I think some people consider monarchy feasible because of Japan's example. But Japan and China are two different nations. The Japanese tenno has an unbroken line of succession (or so they claim) in a thousand years. Therefore his position is unquestionably stable in Japanese society. (Even the most democratically minded Japanese will not object to the Tenno because he is the symbol of Japan.) Chinese emperors, on the other hand, change frequently. The sense of identifying the Emperor with Chian is not common in people's minds, even back in the days of Qing. So I don't consider constitutional monarchy feasible.