58 replies to this topic

[Boleslaw I]

Wow! You are really very knowledgeable! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us.

Since you know much beter than me Chinese Military History, I'd like to ask if any Flanged-Mace existed in China ?

Thanks, I am only an amateur, and I always bear that in mind. I share my little piece of knowledge on Western Military History in exchange of Chinese Military History. This forum, I consider it as a port in China, where I am a merchant from somewhere far-off Western, come here for business . By that we are creating a lucrative trade.

I only hope all of you enjoy this thread as you enjoy researching Ancient Chinese Weapons.

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Imperial Marshal Mok, the following prototypes were also prefered by Mounted Archers, Mounted Knights and even Heavy Infantry from Persia and Russia.

OK, As the previous I introduced to you Flanged-mace, it is time to come up with another type, older, long-existed and may be less expensive:

Knobbed Mace

It is certainly that flanged-mace remained unpopular throughout the 13th century. However, the history of Knobbed Mace had to be traced back to 9th or 10th BC century, from KHAZAR land, Russia. Knobbed Mace had its deep root in Russian-Kievan or Persian-Arabian warfare before it was favoured in Eastern, Northern (Norse and Dansk) and Southern Europe in following centuries. I have to concede at the outset that I have no evidence whatsoever about the existence of this weapon in China, if someone have evidence, please post it here.

Let's get down to brass tack!



Mini-Khazar mace - c. 9th - 12th century AD

A beautifully made but very small version of the earliest type of medieval knobbed mace. This design - four pyramidal knobs on a cubic body - is known as Type I in Kirpichnikov’s typology of Russian and Steppe mace heads. These maces are first found in Khazaria, the steppe lands just north of the Caucasus mountains, in the 9th century AD. By the 11th century they were being made in Kiev and other southern Rus cities. These maces were spread westward into the Balkans by the migrating western Turkic tribes. Iron mace heads are found in the Balkans, likely of local tribal manufacture. Higher quality bronze examples come from the Kievan and Khazar foundries.



The mace is 5.35 cm wide and 2.65 cm tall. The haft hole is 2.2 cm in diameter. The mace only weighs 0.09 kg (0.2 lbs). Nevertheless, the haft hole is as large as those of much bigger mace heads. This is likely not a miniature offertory mace head as these were usually smaller scale models and would have had a much smaller haft hole. Ths mace head was clearly meant to be placed on a full-sized haft. Although light, it is hard and pointy and would make an adequate secondary weapon against an unarmoured or lightly armoured foe. Remember, a Mounted Warrior could still carry with him his favourable killing machine, as in the case of Gothic Knights.



An overhead view showing the large haft hole and the four knobs. Sorry for the fuzzy photos, the author should adjust his focus a bit more



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Kiev style Knobbed Mace - c. 12th - 13th century

This prototype comes from Moscow Museum

This mace is of a form found across Russia, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and the former Yugoslavia (Serbia-Montenegro, Croatia, Macedonia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina). Known as the Kirpichnikov Type IV, it originated in Kievan metal foundries and was based on a local adaptation of the Khazar mace type shown above - the Kirpichnikov Type I. The four upper and four lower corners of the Type I’s cube have extended outwards forming smaller knobs giving the Type IV twelve knobs (four large and eight small). These maces were first produced, mostly in bronze, in Kiev and other southern Rus cities. Many existing Kievan bronze examples are highly decorated with rings, lines and dots. Bronze maces were first exported and later copied (in both bronze and iron) throughout much of Europe. Examples are known from the Baltics, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, the Western Balkans, Germany, Sweden and England (With some small alternative features).

These maces are heavy and deadly and would be effective against not only against unarmoured or lightly armoured foes but against any armour of the time (c. 1100-1300). The Turkic peoples of this time usually wore lamellar armour of leather, horn, bronze or iron. Some alternative type of this mace could be also obtained sparsely from Uygur people

This mace is 8.2cm in diameter and 4cm high. The hole is 2.75cm in diameter. It has 12 pyramidal knobs in three rows of four - four four-sided knobs and eight three-sided knobs (half knobs). It is hollow cast and is roughly 3mm thick at the edges. The knobs are solid. It is 0.39kg (0.85 lbs). It is made of iron. The mace has seen heavy use.



Top view of the same mace head showing the star pattern of the "standard Kievan knobbed mace".

Edited by Boleslaw I, 22 June 2007 - 10:41 AM.

[Mok]

Since you know much beter than me Chinese Military History, I'd like to ask if any Flanged-Mace existed in China ?

I am not sure about this. Perhaps, you should consult experts like Kenneth, Wujiang and warhead.

Thanks, I am only an amateur, and I always bear that in mind. I share my little piece of knowledge on Western Military History in exchange of Chinese Military History. This forum, I consider it as a port in China, where I am a merchant from somewhere far-off Western, come here for business . By that we are creating a lucrative trade.

I only hope all of you enjoy this thread as you enjoy researching Ancient Chinese Weapons.

We are all here to learn.

[Mok]

Boleslaw, would you consider this a mace? It is what we Chinese call 狼牙, or Wolf's Teeth.

[Boleslaw I]

Boleslaw, would you consider this a mace? It is what we Chinese call 狼牙, or Wolf's Teeth.

Oh, if this weapon from China, then it must not be a mace. From this view, the structure of its head seems to resemble another type of weapon: Flail or Morning Star, as I will bring upon some images in my database.
I presume that the Pyramid Pike of Kenneth also resemble this sturcture. However, I can make sure that this is neither a Flanged-Mace nor Knobbed Mace

By the way, do you have any question upon the new section I post? I can try to answer you some other details relate to knobbed Mace

Edited by Boleslaw I, 22 June 2007 - 11:30 AM.

[Mok]

By the way, do you have any question upon the new section I post? I can try to answer you some other details relate to knobbed Mace

Yes, one question: if I am not wrong, the knobbed mace originated in Eastern Europe...was it used in Western Europe? If not, why was it not popular or not used?

[Boleslaw I]

Yes, one question: if I am not wrong, the knobbed mace originated in Eastern Europe...was it used in Western Europe? If not, why was it not popular or not used?

No, you are not wrong. Knobbed Mace had its deep root in Eastern Europe. Your question has actually focused upon a fierce dabate 1 years ago between two groups of members of Historum.

I would like to represent what does it mean when I use the two phraces: Western Europe and Eastern Europe.
The Major Kingdom in Western Europe is: Kingdom of France, Kingdom of England (Not Great Britain, and not counted the Scottish territory), Kingdom of Scottland, Holy Roman Empire and the newly risen Kingdom of Swiss

The Major Kingdom in Eastern Europe: Kingdom of Magyar (Hungaria), Kingdom Of Polska (Poland), Kingdom of People's Muscovy

Group 1: Jubelu lead the first group argued that there are not enough evidences to assert the existence of Knobbed mace in Western Europe. He particularly focused upon Germany and Italia, clarified that these two major kingdoms virtually became Arsenals for Western Europe's weapon trade and distribution. Very rare remained prototypes were found in market from 10th century to 15th century. To deal with the question why, he refered back to the traditional military warfare between West and East of Europe. While Western European Army dealt with Heavy Armour by using AXE as a major weapon from 9th century to 15th century, the Eastern Polska, Magyars, Bulgars, Yugoslavs and Kievan tend to absorb the influence of oriental warfare, especially from Turkic Empire through trade relation of the Byzantine Empire. Hence, mace became very popular in Eastern Europe, while virtually disspeared from Western Europe. Warfare waged against Holy Roman Empire and France during the battle of Bouvine 1214 under the reign of Phillipe Augustus II of France and Otto IV of HRE also damaged the trade of weapons between these two major kingdoms.

Thus, the chance for the poularity of Knobbed Mace in Western Europe become very slim under this view.

Group 2: Lead by Brutus and Besilarius presumed that their view upon the popularity of Knobbed Mace inWestern Europe did not neccessarily mutually exclusive the view of Jubelu. However, an utter denial of Knobbed Mace in Western Europe is an implausible argument. They argued that Knobbed Mace did become popular after the 13th century. The evidences, however, are sparsed and mainly derived from Bishop Records which were stored at the time in various Catholic Church. The most famous among these records is the depiction of Bishop Odo of Bayeux using a club-like weapon or mace at Battle of Hasting. Throughout the 100 Years War between Kingdom of France and England, the representation of a kind of Knobbed Mace did appear in battlefield, according to these records. But for concrete evidence, such as remnants, this group failed to find their own.

I belong to middle grounds of these two major views, and my suggestion is to led this thread unfold, and it was. However, I think the group 1 predominated the opinion of other members.

I would like to combine this question to answer the first question: Is there any well known warriors used my described weapons.
For Mace I would like to let you know Stephan The Great of Hungary (935-1038AD), for additional information, please follow the link below:
http://en.wikipedia....en_I_of_Hungary

Edited by Boleslaw I, 22 June 2007 - 12:28 PM.

[Mok]

Thank you again, Boleslaw.

I have learnt much from you.

[Boleslaw I]

Thank you again, Boleslaw.
I have learnt much from you.

Anytime!

I would like to post more prototypes of various classification, hopefully it will not obstacle the main server of the forum you know.

Any question you find difficult to answer before I am goint to post the next thread of Knobbed Mace

Edited by Boleslaw I, 22 June 2007 - 12:43 PM.

[Mok]

Nope, no more questions.

You can post ahead...I don't think there will be a server problem.

[Boleslaw I]

Thanks a lot for all who are watching this thread!

As a reward for your excellent question, Imperial Marshal Mok, I would like to present to you:



English Knobbed Mace - c. 13th century
This is the only prototype that Brutus and Besilarius successfully found as an evidence for their views. I concede that this a very significant attempt, however, not enough to prove the popularity of Knobbed Mace in Western Europe.

This mace is of the same form as the previous Kirpichnikov Type IVi but is reported to be from Kent in England. While this at first appears surprising and hard to believe there are other fully documented finds of similar mace heads from England. A knobbed mace head of almost identical form, but made of bronze like many Eastern European examples, was found in the cesspit of Dryslwyn Castle in Wales and is believed to date from the 1287 siege of that castle. The Dryslwyn Castle mace has an eight-sided metal neck, extending several inches below the head. The mace illustrated here has significant damage to its top and bottom and could have once been attached to a similar neck. Either way, the similarity in head shapes is uncanny. Another, similar mace, also with a metal shaft, was recently found in Kent. The style spread from Kiev westwards through the Carpathians, northwards along Scandinavian trade routes and southwest into the Balkans. The few examples from England and Western Europe likely came via Scandinavia but could have come from other routes.

This mace is 8.25cm in diameter and 4cm high. The hole is 3.1cm in diameter. It has 12 pyramidal knobs in the same pattern as the previous mace although the main four knobs are slightly longer. It is hollow cast and is roughly 3mm thick at the edges. The knobs are solid. It is 0.26kg (0.55 lbs). It is made of iron.



Top view of the same mace head. The main four knobs are clearly much longer than the smaller half-knobs.

A Quick Review for you to compare with prototype from Kiev:
English Prototype


Kievan Prototype


And Head View of this two Types:

English Prototype


Kievan Prototype


Small Hungarian Knobbed Mace - c. 12th-13th century



This small mace head comes from Hungary or its environs. I have found no exact parallel to this style although it is obviously a variation of the Kievan style of knobbed mace head seen above. The bronze construction and high quality imply that it could be an import from the Kiev area.



This small mace is 6cm in diameter and 2.9cm high. The hole is 2.6cm in diameter. It has 12 pyramidal knobs in two rows of six. It is hollow cast and is roughly 3mm thick at the edges. The knobs are not hollow. It is only 0.16kg (0.35 lbs). It is made of bronze.

Edited by Boleslaw I, 22 June 2007 - 04:55 PM.

[Boleslaw I]

I think I have not mentioned enough for Arabic Knobbed Mace

I personally have a tendency to prefer the Arabic Knobbed Mace. Their mace heads were distinguished from European continent, more decoration and extremely well made for sure.

Bronze Turkic Knobbed Mace Head - c. 13th - 14th century



This extremely well made, but damaged, mace head is a later and more refined variation of the standard knobbed mace pattern. Maces identical in overall form have been found in Hungary, Bosnia and Croatia. Various styles of knobbed maces have been found with similar, but not identical decorations. They come from Moldova and Eastern Hungary and Romania. On the bulk of the evidence the basic design is likely Kievan inspired, a variation on Kirpichnikov's Types I and IV. While the pseudo-kufic design (see below) seems to indicate Arab influence, the Cumans/Kipchaks used the Arabic script for their Turkic language. This mace likely comes from Cumans/Kipchaks, former steppe dwellers who had, by this time, settled on the Hungarian plains. Although, it may have been made for them in a foreign foundry - such as at Kiev.

This mace is 5.8cm in diameter and 5.2cm high. The hole is 2.2cm (bottom) and 2.8cm (top) in diameter. It has 21 low knobs in three rows of seven - 7 diamond-shaped and 14 triangular (half-knobs). It is hollow cast and is roughly 2mm thick at the edges. The knobs are hollow but thicker than 2mm. The head has been heavily damaged. Approximately one-third of the upper half of the head has been broken away - likely in combat use since the edges near the hole are bent inwards showing signs of a major impact. What is left of the head is 0.15kg (0.33 lbs). It is made of bronze and is highly decorated with incised markings.
I try to predict the material of this mace's shaft. According to my experience, the shaft must be wood and less than 1m5. However, this is only my personal observation.



A side view of the mace showing the damage and the hollow construction.




This excellent photo from Dr Shawn M. Caza really strikes admire on my heart

Balkan Knobbed Mace - c.12th - 13th century



We have had Knobbed Mace from: England, Hungaria, Russia, Kazhak. There is still one more area I have not mentioned, Balkan. The following prototype from Southern Europe. The quality of this head has been wore off due to the time desturction. However, current images are still able to show us details and its orign.

This mace, found in the Balkans, is likely derived from the Kievan style. The placement and shape of the knobs is almost the exact same as in the Kirpichnikov Type IV mace shown above - one row of five (instead of four) diamond kobs and and two off-set rows totalling ten (instead of eight) triangular-base half-knobs. However, the knobs are flat unlike the proper Type IV tall pyramidal knobs. This similarity implies close knowledge of the Type IV mace - which is not hard to imagine as it spread far and wide.

In addition, round mace heads with many flat roundish knobs are illustrated in a Milanese carving of 1167, a Navarresse manuscript of 1197 and a late 12th century Swabian/Swiss painting. While the painting shows a Magi in Eastern costume, the Milanese carving shows an Italian militiaman so it can be assumed that Europeans used this design by at least the late 12th century. Unfortunately, none of these iconographic examples is detailed enough to know if these 12th century southern European maces had the same pattern of knob placement.

There are also literary refences to an 11th century Persian mace style known as Bilka Takini (literally “grape stones”) could be similar to this form.

This large, heavy mace is 7cm in diameter and 6.0cm high. The hole is 2.85cm (bottom) and 2.6cm (top) in diameter. It has 15 flattened knobs - 5 are diamond shaped and 10 are triangular (half-knobs). It is hollow cast and is roughly 3-4mm thick at the edges. The knobs are not hollow. It is 0.41kg (0.90 lbs). It is made of iron.



Top view of the same mace head showing the large haft hole.

[Mok]

One question, Boleslaw: were Central Asians like Kazakhs influenced by Turkish/Eastern European maces, or Arabian maces?

[Boleslaw I]

One question, Boleslaw: were Central Asians like Kazakhs influenced by Turkish/Eastern European maces, or Arabian maces?

Hi, I have just drop off sleep for a while, perhaps 30mi. I am so tired after researching another prototype of Knobbed Mace sent by Jubelu.

In order to answer your question properly, I would like to use your geographical imagination. As you know the position of Kazakhs in the World Map, the area was placed under both two influence, from Islamic civilisation and the Orthodox one from Russia. As the previous post stated, The Turkic people influennced more by Islamic culture, hence their weapons would be a incarnation of somewhat belong to Muslim art of forge. However, I do not know if you know the Khwarazmia Empire or not, so let's assume that you know, this empire actually played a crucial role in exchanging the culture interference between Islamic and Steppe. Thus, I can say that the area you mentioned above influenced by not only Turkish, but also Muslim culture as well, rather than Eastern Europe. The term Arabian Mace in fact indicated the wide variety of Turkic ethnic groups also.

However, when the Uyghur joined the Mongol Army in XII and XIII BC century, some prototype found in Uzebekistan reflected a much more simple structure than either Arabian or Kievan mace,

These two prototypes were particular form of Turkic-Mongol Mace during the invasion into Europe:



By the way, your avatar seems to be broken link, you may need to adjust a bit

Anything else you find intriguing in the previous posts? Is my English clear enough for you? I will try to enhance right away

Edited by Boleslaw I, 22 June 2007 - 08:38 PM.

[Mei Houwang]

I'd like to ask if any Flanged-Mace existed in China ?

Although I can't answer this question, I can say that maces in general weren't common in Chinese battlefields. If they were, I probably could answer that question Most non-bladed bashing weapons were whips, and those aren't even used in battlefields that commonly, if at all. Most bashing weapons would be along the lines of the "da dao", similar in looks to the fauchard that you mentioned earlier.

Edited by Anthrophobia, 22 June 2007 - 09:54 PM.

[whipsandchains]

When was full horse armor first used in Europe? In China it was introduced by nomads ( forgot which tribe).
Do you have any pictures?