58 replies to this topic

[Boleslaw I]

Hi everyone,

I love Western Military History. I recognise that our forum need incarnation of Western Culture too. So this thread is for you to post all the images about Western weapon (if you have image of original version, that is the finest thing). I hope the administrators would not lock this idea.

First, I have a few images about Flanged-Mace:

The following images belong to Shawn M. Caza, special thanks for him/her for these spetecular images. All rights reserve.
Special thanks to Jubelu for posting them into imageshack first

CHAPTER 1: MACE
Brief History
Flanged-Mace is classified into heavy piercing-armour weapon. They did not become popular until late 12th century, due to the invention of plate armour. The number of flange is varied depend upon where they were produced.
While in Western Europe, flanged-mace was only a secondary weapon used mainly on horseback even at the pinnacle of its era, the Arabian culture seemed to prefer this weapon long time before. Some flanged-mace even dated back to ancient time, with incredible design, well-known in the late phase of the Roman Empire.


English Flanged Mace - c. 13th century



This is an excellent, and very rare, example of the classic early Western European flanged mace with six flanges and a diamond-shaped cross-section. This mace was found near Ely, Cambridgeshire, in England and is very similar to the famous 13th century Thames mace in the London City Museum. Similar maces, dated to the 13th century, have also been found in Russia. This mace is quite heavy and has very thick flanges. It would be capable of inflicting crushing blows on helmets as well as causing serious damage through the mostly mail armour of the time.



Closer view of head of same mace showing the very thick flanges. Note the small protrusions at the bottom of the flanges. They have been knocked off some flanges but are visible on two.



Bottom view of same mace showing the flange arrangement, flange thickness and the break and crack in the iron neck.



View of other side of the same mace showing the “seam” where the thin plate which the flanges are welded to does not fully meet as it wraps around the neck. This plate was copper braised to the iron neck.


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Hungarian Flanged Mace - c. late 14th century

This large cast bronze flanged mace head has the same classic diamond form as the previous maces. It was found in Hungary but is of a clearly European style (i.e. there is little or no Kievan, steppe or Turkic influence). This mace is similar in form and size to the heads of the all-metal “Gothic maces” of the late 14th and 15th centuries.

Various types of this Hungarian mace was found in Poland during the age of Boleslaw I onwards. It could be said that flanged-mace proves to be more popular in Russia in Early and High Medieval Era.

This large mace is 9.8cm wide and 15.0 cm tall. The hole is 1.9cm in diameter at the bottom and the short neck is 3-4mm thick. The top end is cast with a partial cover which has a 0.67cm diameter hole in it. This might have been for a separate top spike driven into the wooden haft. It has 6 thin flanges, or wings. The flanges are 13.7 cm long, 3.7cm high and 3.5-4mm thick. It is 0.66kg (1.45 lbs) and would have been a heavy, fearsome weapon when mounted on a wooden haft. It is made of bronze (although the underlying central neck may be iron).

Hungarian maces mainly used by Royal Bodyguard since their effective of combating. Hungarian Infantry sometimes used this weapon as their primary weapon to deal with Heavy Knights.



Top view of same mace showing arrangement of the narrow flanges and the partially enclosed top with narrow hole - possibly for a top spike.
From this view, you can see the flanges were actually being wear off by time.

I posed a question for Jubelu for asking him whether is there any possibility for a Hungarian head mace attached to a long pike shaft. The answer is no since the weight of the head could broke any wooden shaft. However, he said that he did see about 1m50 long metal shaft for a Swiss Flanged-Mace, but this is an exception.



Bottom view of same mace showing the relatively thin construction of all components.
This is my favourite view since it showed us the height of each flange. The structure of flanged-mace is actually quite similar to each other.

Edited by Boleslaw I, 02 July 2007 - 11:31 PM.

[Mok]

Why no, of course we won't lock this thread.

You're welcome to post anything and everything pertaining to Western weapons in this forum. Don't worry - even if you post in the wrong forum, we're always here to help move it to the right place.

Looking forward to see more pics!

- Mok

Btw, if you have any pics of a glaive to post up, I would be very much obliged.

[Boleslaw I]

Why no, of course we won't lock this thread.

You're welcome to post anything and everything pertaining to Western weapons in this forum. Don't worry - even if you post in the wrong forum, we're always here to help move it to the right place.

Looking forward to see more pics!

- Mok

Btw, if you have any pics of a glaive to post up, I would be very much obliged.

I am very fond of GLAIVE, Imperial Marshal Mok. It is my favourable one, it was used widely for Militia in England as well as European Continent. I will try to find it in my gallery. You know, because I possess too many weapons from Western Culture, I really want to expand my view into Chinese and Far East culture too.

[Boleslaw I]

After this post, you will be able to:
+ Understand the structure of Byzantine and Arabian Flanged-Mace
+Compare the structure of these two cultures with Western Flanged-Mace.

The images of the first post give you a overview of Western Medieval Flanged-Mace.
I would like to invite you to the next category of this fearsome weapon. It was clear that Byzantine Empire became "the host" for this "kid-forbidden toy". Here are some images from Late Byzantine Flanged-Mace 14th century.

Byzantine elongated flanged mace - c. 14th century



A very interesting mace design. This mace has six, relatively thin, flanges mounted mid-way up a cylinder. The cylinder, including finial is on piece, an impressive metallurgical feat. The flanges are attached to a metal sheet which is wrapped (and copper braised ?) around the cylinder. The flanges have and early gothic style curve to them - a style first seen in Italy in the mid-14th century.

The elongated/flanged mace is very rare. There is a documented find from Stara Zagorska, Bulgaria said to date from the 13th-14th century, although it has half-round flanges. There is also an undocumented example said to be from Hungary with square flanges. This example may be an Eastern Balkan find

This type of flanged-mace is also found by archeologists in Bulgaria. As a result of geographic position, Constantinople became a market for trading this weapon. Few know that before its collapse, Byzantine Empire sold these weapons in exchange of lamellar metal armour for horses from Khwarazmia, through Turkey, though this trade route was continously cut off due to dissension between the Byzantinian Emperor and the Seljuk Turk (Celjoukide Turk).



The thin flanges and round finial are clear in this top image. The mace is 19.5 cm long. The flanged part is 6.7 cm long and 7.4 cm wide. The six flanges themselves are 6.4 cm long, 2.3 cm high and 5 mm wide at the base tapering to 2.7 mm wide at the “points”. The haft is 6.4 cm in diameter and 2mm thick. The haft hole is 6 cm in diameter allowing for an impressive haft. It weighs 0.5 kg (1.1 lbs).

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Arab elongated "cucumber" mace - c. 12th - 13th century

The name cucumber suggested the shape of the mace head. As you can see here, an imaginative, but not less dangerous and fearsome design of Arabian artist. The Arabian army had a knack for using heavy weapons to inflict their European counterparts during the Crusaders. As the time period suggested, this type of mace was used widely in the Seljuk Turk's territory and Abassid Fatimad. Later, it were the Mamluks who used this weapon in their fateful confrontation against the Mongols at Battle of Ain Jalut (1260).
However, the weapon was still less abundant in terms of production since its expansive producting cost and upkeeping cost. Especially during the decline of the Abassyd Fatimad during the late 14th century, the staggering debts of the Sultan did not allow to produce this weapon anymore.
Nonetheless, the fate of flanged-mace under the powerful Ottoman Empire shined as the sun again. Flanged-mace became rapidly popular and was favoured by many general or leader of Ottoman army...



Not a true flanged mace head, the elongated mace head family are dealt with here as they are closer to flanged than knobbed maces. Elongated, roughly cylindrical mace heads were common throughout the Islamic world. In Arabic they are known as cucumber maces, “khyara-t al-dabbus”. The earliest examples date from the 10th century and they were common in the 11th-13th centuries. The earliest elongated maces were round or six-faceted (hexagonal) in cross-section. During the 12th-13th centuries elongated maces with ridges or proto-flanges appeared although hexagonal ones remained in use.

It is a main problem for amateur and proffessional military historinans to determine whether a flanged-mace, as this prototype, belonged to the family of FLANGED-MACE or KNOBBED MACE. I particularly presume that this mace could be treated as a flanged-mace, since its features at least meet the definition.



In this top view the six triangular ridges and the top hole can be seen. The mace is 10.6 cm tall and 4.0 cm in diameter. The ridges or proto-flanges are 7.6 cm long, 1.25 cm wide at the base and 0.9 cm tall. The haft hole is 2.4 cm in diameter. It weighs 0.29 kg (0.64 lbs). It is made of iron and some dirt remains in the haft hole.

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Turkic Style Flanged Mace - c. 14th century
This mace is a small, but classic, design of flanged mace. Mace heads of very similar size and shape, in iron or bronze, were in use by the Seljuk Turks in Asia Minor in the 13th century. Given that the Seljuks had “recently” passed through the Luristan/Transoxiana and similar maces had been used in that region in antiquity there is a good chance the the design originated there. This form of mace was popular in the Balkans, where it was known as a Shestoper, in the 14th and 15th century. This example was found in the Balkans.

This mace is 5.5cm in diameter and 8.1cm high. The hole is 2.0cm in diameter while the exterior diameter of the neck is 2.65cm. The mace is capped on the top. It has 6 flanges, or wings, which appear to be comprised of one forged piece which is attached to a round iron neck. The neck is hollow and is not broken at the bottom. It appears to be complete and was mounted on the end of a long wooden haft. The flanges are 5.0 cm long, up to 1.6cm high and 5-6.5mm thick (tapering to 2-3mm). It is 0.24kg (0.53 lbs). It is made of iron.





Top view of the same mace head clearly showing the arrangement of the six thin flanges and the solid top cap.



Bottom view of the same mace showing the hollow metal neck. Note how the flanges are wider at the bottom and narrow towards the top.

So far, you have enough information for basic type of flanged-mace.

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Edited by Boleslaw I, 22 June 2007 - 12:27 AM.

[Mok]

Excellent work! I look forward to learning more about glaives.

[whipsandchains]

Ohhhh. I wanted to ask what the difference between a Spetum and a Trident is. They look the same to me.

[Boleslaw I]

I would like to draw your attention to this flanged-mace. It is a prototype from the Salzburg Museum - Austria.

Early European Sprial Flanged Mace - c. 12th century



This is an early form of the flanged, or winged, mace head. It was found in Germany or its environs and is likely of local manufacture. The construction is rather crude. It is a relatively light weapon. Spiral flanged maces are shown on two contemporary illustrations - a late 11th/early 12th century carved altar in Campania, Italy and Cathedral mosaics c.1180-1190 in Monreale, Italy. Although in both cases the maces are used by Western Europeans the design probably came from Moslem Sicily.

This mace is 6cm in diameter and 5.6cm high. The hole is 2.3cm (bottom) and 2.0cm (top) in diameter. It has 6 small flanges, or wings, set in a spiral pattern. The flanges are 5.0 cm long, up to 2cm high and 4-5mm thick. It is hollow cast and is roughly 3mm thick at the edges. The knobs are solid. It is a relatively light 0.18kg (0.4 lbs). It is made of iron and has seen considerable use. Several flanges are quite damaged.



Top view of the same mace head clearly showing the spiral arrangement of the flanges. The damage to one flange in visible on the upper left of the picture.

The reason for this damage, according to Jubelu, is because of a heavy inflict upon its victim.

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To close the section of flanged-mace, I would like to introduce a later prototype of flanged-mace:

Piriform mace head with thick flanges - c.14th-16th



This mace is similar to the Turkic mace head shown above. Both have a “U-shaped” profile. However, the flanges are much thicker and more closely set in this example. The flange thickness and placement are very similar to that of 15th to 17th century Ottoman mace heads - which usually have a round or piriform profile.

Found in the Balkans this mace was erroneously labelled a Roman mace - which it certainly is not. There is no evidence or record whatsoever of any mace used by the Romans. The general shape (like the 12th-14th century Turkic maces) and the flange placement (like the later Ottoman maces) clearly indicates a late medieval date.



The mace shaft has a hole for a fastening pin and a slightly flared rim at the bottom. There is also a simple line decorated the top just below the head.

Sorry for the blurry image . The 8 thick flanges can clearly be seen in this view. The construction of this mace is rather crude, the flanges are no all even.

The mace is 5.4 cm in diameter and 6.0 cm high. The eight flanges are 2.9 cm long, 1.5 cm high and 1.1 to 1.3 cm thick. The lower shaft is 2.6 cm in diameter flaring to 3.1 cm at the bottom. The haft hole is 2.3 cm in diameter. The mace head weighs 0.26 kg (0.57 lbs) quite heavy for its small size. It is made of iron.

[Boleslaw I]

To Imperial Marshal Mok

First, I apologise to my impotence in finding an original medieval glave.
I could only give you some images through modern version

http://www.aurorahis...cts/R000316.jpg

What is a glave?

Glaive is a knife-bladed spear having the thrusting function of the spear and the secondary cutting function of the convex blade of the knife. The increase in the size of the blade of these weapons brought them to the point where they nearly used by merging with cleaver-type weapons. A 15th century glaive could reach 6 to 7 feet long. Glaive is classified into linear polearms



Glaive is a French word, it also hath other alternatives too, couteau de breche

Fauchard, a bloodline of glave became more popular in France even much longer than his younger brother (from 11th century to 14th century). A Fauchard differentiates from his brother due to its scrolly hook. However, the definition of this weapon possesses no absolute rule, due to the variety found in Germany and Italia later in 16th century. For more information, you can use this link as reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fauchard

For illustration, I only have a 1500s an Italian Fauchard:
About 3 months ago, I first considered this version as a Chinese weapon really, due to its particular shape and its decoration.
However, after a very long thread and quite agressive discussion, Jubelu and Brutus in Historium helped me to clarify that this is actually a Fauchard. They had ran their databases and find no result for Chinese category, even Chinese Martial Weapons.

The blade has been reconditioned and treated well with chemical. You can find some similar versions in Milan Museum I believe. In Poland, I have not recognised the existence of this type of weapon.



Now, because you are really curious about this branch of polearm, I will try to get deeply as far as I can
I want you to look at close to the hook, you will see that this is actually two hooks.
Compare that with this modern model:



What could you see is a monohook fauchard.

Since our discussion as I mentioned above, Jubelu actually predict that the Italian version is for Ceremonial purpose but not for practical use. Of course, this is only a hypothesis.

If you really love this branch of Western Polearms, I will try to gather other family members. Most typical part of this branch is the English Bill, French Voulge as well as some other varieties.

Thanks for watching

To whipsandchains,

I really see no difference between them. Sorry for my ignorance. I will consult with other members in Historium for delivering you best information as I can.

Edited by Boleslaw I, 22 June 2007 - 01:56 AM.

[Mok]

Thanks, Boleslaw!

[Boleslaw I]

Thanks, Boleslaw!

Oh no, I only gather information from Jubelu and Brutus. They are both prominent amateur for Military History. I hope they can join our forum after they finish the entrance examination for college

I apologise if my post contains some gramatical mistakes or vague in description, I will try to avoid them in my subsequen posts.

Edited by Boleslaw I, 22 June 2007 - 02:27 AM.

[Mok]

That would be great. Please invite them here when their exams are done.

[Boleslaw I]

Jubelu is from SYRIA, Brutus is from USA, just let you know

What else you really find intriguing? Please pose question. I will answer for you as my expertise is Western Medieval Weapons

[Mok]

Hmm...ok.

Any famous warriors/generals who used the weapons you described? What weapon was preferred by mounted warriors? Are there any fighting styles developed specially for those weapons? For instance, the Chinese have spear fighting styles, etc.

[Boleslaw I]

Hmm...ok.

Any famous warriors/generals who used the weapons you described? What weapon was preferred by mounted warriors? Are there any fighting styles developed specially for those weapons? For instance, the Chinese have spear fighting styles, etc.

Wow, I did not expect so many questions like that. Let's sort out

1. Any famous warriors/generals who used the weapons you described?
2. What weapon was preferred by mounted warriors?
3. Are there any fighting styles developed specially for those weapons?

OK, I would like to answer the second and third question first.

All flanged-mace's members generally were used and favoured by Heavy Knights in Western Europe in the late Medieval

The English flanged-mace I show you up there were used in late Hundred Years War. The French also prefer this weapon to manoeuvre their foes's flank. However, the most notable use of Flanged-Mace was actually fromt the Gothic Knights. These warriors used lance as their primary weapon to attack when the two armies come into contact with a full scale battlefield. When they got close enough their foes, these Knights droped their primary weapon and used flanged-mace in dealing with heavy armour enemies, or they could use their Chapter Sword to thrust light infantry. By the end of 15th century, Knights had adopted to carry on horseback a Flanged-mace for preparing any sudden clash. The reason for this weapon to become less popular for Foot Soldiers was because of their expensive cost, both for buying and upkeeping. A Flanged-mace like the Hungarian one up there could be found only from reputable metalsmith. I try to get you to imagine if you are a Armoured Sergeant who only wear a brigandine when you fight outside batlefield, walk into a Hamburg market for buying weapons. You would rather buy flanged-mace since it costs all your monthly salary

With the Arabian, as I said above, Flanged-mace was not something abnormal to them as it showed in Western Kingdoms. The Turk infantries under the leadership of KERBOGHA during the First Crusade did use flanged-mace to manoeuvre their Templar enemy. However, more Foot Soldiers prefered to choose axe in exchange of lower price too.

The Tudor Knights in 16th century followed the precedent Gothic Knights, formally used Flanged-mace as one of their most favourite weapons. Reason was not its effective mainly, but it showed a sign of power and strong society position.

In Kiev, flanged-mace became a very favourable weapon during the regime of Yaroslav I the Wiser, and as I mentioned above, during the reign of Boleslaw I, flanged-mace did show their appearance.

The technique of using flanged-mace is quite the same as other weapons. Because of its powerful damage, you do not have to be so skillful to master it. However, the Arabian did aim at head of their foes to inflict heavily. This resulted in some cracks in the skulls of Templar Knights and Hospitaller Knights found at Chrak The Chevalier-Syria.

The deadly result in flanged-mace is actually not when it contact directly to human body, but its pressure upon heavy armour. When you hit heavily a flanged-mace upon one armour, its enormous force transfers from your weapon to the armour, and from the armour to human body. In the case a hit strikes upon your left or right weist, your ribes might be broken. During the battle Agincourt, a body of a victim was found with his vetebrae was broken into two pieces by a strike from his head.

The weapon was usually held by two hands

By the way, is there any evidence for flanged-mace in CHina, I have not seen any, neither Jubelu nor Brutus.

With glaive, to be honest with you, it is not a very popular weapon and mainly used by Foot Soldier.
Because its simple blade, it did terrible damage with Knight wore chain mail or mail hauberk, but ineffective with plate armour.
To form a formation that using glaive is quite similar to those of other members of the polearms family.

FORMATION 1: Soldiers formed a square, with four side defend by glaives blade. This was common against a cavalry raid from the enemy. The French would be more to use glaive, as well as Voulge. We call them generally Glavier or Voulgier.

FORMATION 2: This formation is used when soldiers shaped themselves into two or three line. They usually use the second formation for protecting ranks and rear of an army against sudden manoeuvre of light cavalry. The first column of the line will knee, hence their glaive's blade will point upward. The second coulumn stand, a little bit lean forward and keep their blade straight, the third column stand straight up, point their blade about 45 to 60 degree with the ground, forming a good defend wall. The key is not to led the whole formation collapse when a frontal attack manoeuvred by Heavy Cavalry or knight. The shaft of glaive could be hold tie by press its base to the ground, the same technique found by pikemen.

With Fauchard, everything the same as its brother

I will try to answer first question after several careful references.

[Mok]

Wow! You are really very knowledgeable! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us.