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Yuan Chonghuan


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#46 Rong Qin Wang

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 03:41 AM

Ahem, just a note to fans of Jin Yong's (金庸) martial arts novels who read or watched The Deer and the Cauldron (Duke of Mount Deer/鹿鼎記/鹿鼎记), published in (1969.

The empress dowager (太后) of the Qing Dynasty was discovered to be an imposter impersonated for years by Mao DongZhu (毛东珠), a fictional character created by Jin Yong and said to be daughter of Mao WenLong.

Mao DongZhu was an agent of the fictional Divine Dragon Sect which was based on a fictional Divine Dragon Island located somewhere in the waters in NE China, the same region where Mao WenLong was supposed to have been active in. Thus far, the historical fiction fit logically.

What would be hard to reconcile was the supposed age of Mao DongZhu during the novel.

Mao WenLong died in 1629.

The novel began in 1669 when Emperor KangXi successfully plotted to arrest Oboi (鰲拜).
In the novel, Mao DongZhu was supposed have infiltrated the Imperial Palace as a maid serving Emperor ShunZi's empress. It was not clear which empress this was - historically, there was Empress Xiaohui Zhang (孝惠章皇后), and after his death, a an Empress Dowager CiHe (慈和皇太后) who was the official birth-mother of KangXi.
In anycase, she was supposed to have observed the empress for years before usurping her role, and responsible for deaths of other concubines before ShunZi retired in 1661.

During the novel, not only did she have a lover, but she was apparently attractive enough for Wei XiaoBao to put on a big bed for a romp with 8 other women (or 9, I can't recall).

She'd at least have to be more than 50 years old then.


Zunjing de Snowybeagle Xian Sheng,

Hmm, after reading Jin Yong’s novel, The Duke of Mount of Deer, I have always thought that the Empress Dowager in this novel was purely fictional since Emperor Shun Zhi deposed his first Empress, and the birth mother of Emperor Kang Xi died four months after her son’s ascension to the throne. However, after looking up some information, I have learned that Emperor Shun Zhi created another lady from the same clan of his mother to be his second Empress. When Emperor Kang Xi inherited the throne, she was conferred with the title of Empress Xiao Hui Zhang. Apparently, Empress Xiao Hui Zhang was the most insignificant Empress throughout the Qing Dynasty since she did not bore any children nor was she very much loved by Emperor Shun Zhi. It seemed that Emperor Shun Zhi needed to replace the deposed Empress, so Empress Xiao Hui Zhang was chosen randomly.

Anyway, I would like to know more regarding Empress Xiao Hui Zhang. Did she do anything special? Was her relationship with Emperor Kang Xi similar to what was indicated in this Jin Yong’s novel?

Xie Xie,

#47 galvatron prime

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 12:06 PM

I Think Emperor Sunzhi much loved women was wife of his half-brother Prince Bombogor,Huangtaiji 11 th son ,Empress Hsiao Hsien Tuan Ching or Juanchi ,He marry her after the death of his brother in 1656.

#48 Rong Qin Wang

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 12:33 PM

I Think Emperor Sunzhi much loved women was wife of his half-brother Prince Bombogor,Huangtaiji 11 th son ,Empress Hsiao Hsien Tuan Ching or Juanchi ,He marry her after the death of his brother in 1656.


Zunjing de Galvatron Xian Sheng,

Yes, I am fully aware that Emperor Shun Zhi’s most beloved wife is Empress Xiao Xian Zhuang or better known as Concubine Dong-E. She was sometimes fictionalized as Dong Xiao Wan in some TVB Wuxia Series. It is really obvious that Emperor Shun Zhi’s love for Concubine Dong-E was quite unique in every way. This pair is too famous in history for me to not be familiar with; hence, I am really looking for more information on the lesser known second Empress of Emperor Shun Zhi, Empress Xiao Hui Zhang.

If you have some information on her, then please share it with me.

Xie Xie,

#49 Solid_Snake

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 09:39 PM

Didn't YaunZhongHuan suffer the most crule death sentence in the Ming Dynastie?
一壶浊酒喜相逢。古今多少事,都付笑谈中。

#50 Yun

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 10:25 PM

Yes, death by dismemberment.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#51 Solid_Snake

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 03:46 PM

Can you explain it in depth?( Sorry, if it's too disturbing)
一壶浊酒喜相逢。古今多少事,都付笑谈中。

#52 Yang Zongbao

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 10:08 AM

In depth? I have no idea.

However, Ling Chi, death by dismemberment, is where they cut the flesh off of you, bit by bit. It's a drawn out, painful death.
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#53 Solid_Snake

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 07:24 PM

i heard they cut him 1500 times!!!
一壶浊酒喜相逢。古今多少事,都付笑谈中。

#54 lifezard

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 09:58 AM

there is a ongoing lecture series of the 百家讲坛 fame detailing the 60 years that saw the rise of Manchus and the fall of the Ming by Prof Yan Chongnian. While a couple of his theories were pretty contentious, the few things he raised on the episode on Yuan Chonghuan s death was very worth taking note of

How Yuan's execution of Mao Wenlong inadvertently caused two disasters to the Ming court: one, his own death; and two, the Dengzhou mutiny that caused the death of Sun Yuanhua and the defection of Geng Zhongming, Kong Youde, and Shang Kexi...

[again, from Wakeman's "The Great Enterprise"]

According to another unofficial account of the incident, a slightly different set of events transpired. After Yuan and his men reached Shuangdao, Mao Wenlong entertained them with banquets for several days in his encampment. Yuan then reciprocated by holding his own banquet, for which he supplied the liquor. While the revel was being held, one of Yuan's officers and some men who had hidden themselves in the banqueting hall suddenly sprang out of concealment, and beheaded Mao on the spot.

The murder of Mao Wenlong threw the frontier into turmoil, ultimately releasing many of the general's freebooters to plunder on their own; it also made Yuan Chonghuan extremely vulnerable to rumours circulating at court that Mao had learned about secret negotiations taking place between Yuan and the Manchus. Then, as Yuan was being told to answer for the execution of Mao Wenlong, disaster struck. In November 1629, Hung Taiji moved his troops around Yuan's Ningyuan defenses, and slipping through the friendly territory of the Tumed and the Karacin Mongols, invaded China throught the Xifengkou passes. The raid was swittly executed, and there was barely time for Yuan Chonghuan to send 20,000 of his own troops under Zu Dashou's command rapidly across Hebei from Shanhaiguan to defend the Ming capital. There, in front of the walls of Peking, General Zu Dashou succeeded in driving off the Manchu raiders. But in spite of his soldiers' victory, Yuan Chonghuan was fatally compromised by this humiliating invasion. The Chongzhen Emperor personally blamed him for the disarray of his eastern armies, whose commanders were bickering among themselves over responsibility for defense. Fresh rumours about his contacts with the Manchus circulated, and there was even talk that he had invited them to attack the capital just to underscore his own indispensability to the court. [The rumours actually originated with the Manchus themselves. The collaborator Fan Wencheng got word to the palace eunuchs - whose favour Yuan had never curried - that the Ming commander had secretly arranged a truce with them. The eunuchs in turn circulated the rumour outside the palace among the populace, and the eunuch police agent who was in charge of the case also told the emperor. It was not until scholars began going through the Manchu Veritable Records that they discovered Yuan Chonghuan was completely innocent of these charges.] Formally accused of treason on January 13 1630, for having exceeded his authority by negotiating a truce with the Manchus, Yuan was judged guilty by the emperor. While his sponsors Qian Longxi and Cheng Jiming were sent to jail, Yuan Chonghuan was dismembered in the marketplace and his entire family was either killed or enslaved and driven into exile. [Yuan was sentenced on January 25 and killed on September 22, 1630. Thereafter, officials were extremely reluctant to discuss openly the possibility of peaceful negotiations with the Manchus.]


1. On why Chongzhen killed Yuan Chonghuan?

As shown in Yun s attachments, Yuan Chonghuan was arrested in January, he was executed on September. While, it was very likely that the Manchu ploy led to his arrest, there was a relatively long time to investigate. The effects of 反间计 simply do not last that long if one bothers to investigate at all

2. On whether death was too harsh a punishment for Yuan Chonghuan

There was actually a precedent that the Minister of War, as was one of Yuan s titles then being sentenced to death for failing to prevent Mongols from invading to the nearby environs of Beijing in Jiajing s reign almost a hundred years earlier, Yuan Chonghuan s failure to stop the Manchus from laying seige on the capital itself was definitely more serious. Chongzhen definitely had a case to kill Yuan Chonghuan here for failing his duty.

3. the method of Yuan Chonghuan s execution

Yuan Chonghuan died by 凌迟 (slow dismemberment) which was not usually one of Ming s form of execution, Ming laws only prescribed only hanging and beheading so slow dismemberment was exceedingly harsh.
plain amateur, here to make mistakes, make a fool of ownself, and hopefully learn something in the process

#55 Non-Han Nan Ban

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 06:02 PM

I'm a bit curious now though. Exactly how much did this have to do with the fall of the Ming Dynasty? Was it something that would've happened sooner or later by this period?


I believe the dynasty would have fallen anyway; did Yuan's victories such as the Battle of Ningyuan have anything to do with or have any potential to stop the sudden and dramatic reductions of imported silver (common medium of exchange at the time in China), the effects of the Little Ice Age on Chinese agriculture, widespread epidemics that led to further loss of life and turmoil, and the breakdown of authority and open rebellion within China due to economic and agrarian pressure on society? No.

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#56 lobster

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 02:17 PM

2. On whether death was too harsh a punishment for Yuan Chonghuan

There was actually a precedent that the Minister of War, as was one of Yuan s titles then being sentenced to death for failing to prevent Mongols from invading to the nearby environs of Beijing in Jiajing s reign almost a hundred years earlier, Yuan Chonghuan s failure to stop the Manchus from laying seige on the capital itself was definitely more serious. Chongzhen definitely had a case to kill Yuan Chonghuan here for failing his duty.

This is very interesting. 100 years prior to the Jiajing reign, Beijing was already sieged by the Oirats (they even held the Zhengtong Emperor captive!), but I don't know of any Minister of War being executed for failure back then...

#57 AliAl

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 02:30 AM

This is very interesting. 100 years prior to the Jiajing reign, Beijing was already sieged by the Oirats (they even held the Zhengtong Emperor captive!), but I don't know of any Minister of War being executed for failure back then...


Oirats held the Zhengtong Emperor captive at Tu Mu Bao 土木堡, to the north of the inner Great Wall of Ming first. And then they go through the Great Wall and sieged Beijing. But the army and people beaten them by the lead of Yu Qian 于谦.

But this time, it was the too bad strategic plan and unbelievable troop disposition hammered out by Yuan Chonghuan helped Huang Taiji 皇太极 to complete a miracle on the page of military history.
Beijing suffered great. Yuan's flesh was eaten by the angry citizen of Beijing in the inevitable hour.

In fact, in the after 150 years, Yuan was represented as a villain.
It was QianLong Emperor 乾隆, one king of Qing Dynasty, asked the officials to reverse the verdicts.

There are still many vehement arguments about him in the BAR
http://tieba.baidu.c...com/f?kw=Ô¬³ç»À

In my opinion, Yuan is patriotic, not a hero.

The official book HISTORY OF MING, written by Qing Dynasty, was the most unauthentic one of the 24 official histories

Edited by AliAl, 16 March 2008 - 03:01 AM.


#58 elerosse

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:20 AM

Recently a new theory begins to gain popularity in many Chinese history forums, bringing a new very different view of Yuan Chonghuan. The theory argues that Yuan in fact did more damage than good, and he was just a puppet for the propaganda used by Manchurian emperors.

First of all Yuan was known to speak in superlatives, for example while emperor Chongzhen asked him how many years he needs to finish Manchurians off and reestablish the Ming control of Liaodong, Yuan said he needed 5. This proclaims was the key to Chongzhen’s trust, which turned out to be nothing but big talks.

2. The success of Battle of Ningyuan was highly doubted by the Ming government, and the result of the battle seemed irrational, since the Jin casualty is told to be over 10.000, only 200 heads was notated by the official(the Ming soldiers uses the cut head of the enemy to prove their achievement) . According to Yuan, the reason why the 9.800 heads missed is because the Jins had a ‘tradition’ to take back their fallen comrade’s bodies, thus making many bodies impossible to notate. What is strange is that in Yuan’s report to the emperor, he mentioned that he defeated the Jins three times on the open field. If we are to believe that, then Yuan had more than plenty of fallen Jin soldiers to cut their heads, thus making a number of only 200 doubtable. Another question about Battle of Ningyuan is the mysterious death of Nurhachi, whom according to Yuan died by a hit from a cannonball shot by Ming soldiers. This event could be pure luck, but the unbelievable thing is that Nurhachi died 5 months after the Battle of Ningyuan. So unless his body is hard as steel or he transformed to superman, he couldn't possibly survive the canon hit and then live for another 5 months. (In an age of 68, he battled three major battles personaly within three month, perhaps the main cause of his death)

3. When Jin attacked Korea, Yuan did nothing to help his allied, even though he had a direct order from the emperor to attack Mukden whcih will ease the pressure of Korea and Mao Wenlong. In Yuan’s reply he argued for his denial, saying that the Jin’s are laying traps in Mukden with 100.000 professional soldiers. But in another letter he told the emperor that the amount of Jin soldiers in Korean campaign are more than 150.000. If he spoke true in both letters, then Jin will have an army of 250.000 professional. A number that is even more than the total population of Manchurians! The result of Yuan’s stand aside was that the Ming Empire lost its most important ally, plus the total defeat of Mao, a skilled Ming general whom had won many victories against Jin.

4. The strategy used by Yuan to defend against Jin was to build a hundreds of fortresses in large area, thus making Jin unable to sneak attack without being detected. The emperor agreed the solution. The Yuan then used half of his budget and three years to build the fortresses, just to abandon them all in 1626, wasting a huge number of time, manpower and money for nothing good.

5. By the order of Chongzhen, Yuan was allowed to execute all officers under rank 3 (Yuan himself was given rank 2). This allowance was used later as an argument for executing Mao Wenlong, a general of rank 1! Furthermore, the arguments for executing Mao are both incredible and foolish. For example, one of the arguments was that Mao had all the support he needed, but he didn't yet regain any former Ming territories. This is a lie, since the Mao created his bases and army from nothing, and was even close to retake Mukden! Another example of Yuan’s foolish argument was that Mao had secretly worshipped the eunuch Wei Zhongxian, in a secret island where no one but Mao knew. The problem is then, how did Yuan found it out, when no one knew about it, and he couldn't give an exact location of the island? Despise the retarded arguments Yuan executed Mao, one of the general who had cut of most heads of Jin, regained most territories, won most battles, and had the most important stragical position.

6. Yuan was trading iron and corns with some Mongolian clans, whom turned out to be allies of Jin. When asked why he supported the allies of the enemy with food and weapon, Yuan answered that his moves will ultimately convince the Mongolian clans to stop collaborating with Jin. It later showed that instead of being ‘convinced’, the Mongolian tribe supported Jin with food and weapon bought from Ming.

7. Yuan was given direct command of the defense of the Great Wall. When asked why he reinforced his already well-doing Guanning army from soldiers of Great Wall, he answered that the soldiers are doing nothing on Great Wall, and it was a waste of resource to keep them there. However two months after the main forces leaved the Great Wall, Huang Taiji broke through it. An event that was ‘unknown’ to Yuan, even though he and his army was only 20 km. from the Jin army! He was then ‘informed’ two days after the breakthrough. After the breakthrough he was then given command to all the northern Ming army and garrisons. A wrongness that turned to a disaster, as Yuan ordered every soldier and garrison to assembly in Yuzhou, making the way clear for Huang Taiji to surpass the Ming strongholds and cities without a fight!

8. The diplomacy that Yuan used was directly against the laws of Ming, as he tried to sign a peace treaty with Jin by following terms: Ming will treat Jin as equals, Ming must each year pay 10% of its taxes and 20.000 dan grain as a gift to Jin, Ming must declaim its sovereign of Mongolia and transfer it to Jin, and Ming should declaim all its former territories in Liaoxi, Jianzhou and Liaodong. Fortunately Yuan was forced to stop the peace-progress by harsh warnings of the emperor. The result was a huge depression amongst Ming army, as many of them lost family members to Jin and had a bitter hatred against Manchurians. This also led that the Mongolians allied with Ming lost their trust to Ming, as the peace-progress was hold in secret and without their present.

The supporters of this theory see Yuan rather as an idiotic and useless governor and general than a patriot, and he should be held directly responsible for the Ming failures in Liaodong, and the ultimate end of Ming dynasty.

#59 mariusj

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 03:24 PM

You realize many times TOTALLY NEW VIEW is just another way of saying 'I got no materials but I like to be the center of attention so I will make up TOTALLY WEIRD CONCLUSION base on little or no evidence so people can say wow innovative' right?

#60 Yang Zongbao

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 03:54 PM

I think that Marius has a point. I'd like to see some sourcing for these.
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