147 replies to this topic

[Chen06]

Technically, i'd say Qin Shi Huang is the father of China.

As for MODERN China, i'd say Sun Yat-sen, and i think i'd already explained why i think so in a previous Topic.

If it wasn't for Zhongshan, the Kuomingtang wouldn't exist, therefore the KMT respect him.
If it wasn't for Zhongshan, Mao never would have gotten an education, therefore Mao respected him.
If it wasn't for Zhongshan and Mao, Deng Xiaoping would have never ruled China, therefore the CCP respect him.
If it wasn't for Zhongshan, Mao and Deng Xiaoping, China would never be the Powerhouse it is today.

so in the end, the True answer is Sun Yat-sen.

I would say that Qin Shi Huang is the Father of China. As far as modern China, then Sun Yat-sen for sure. Mao is definitely not the father of China. As Wei Lung said earlier, If it wasn't for Zhongshan, Mao never would have gotten an education, therefore Mao respected him. Also, If it wasn't for Mao, there would be no Cultural Revolution that destroyed thousands of years of irreplaceable Chinese culture and degraded and set back the Chinese people a few hundred years for sure. You have to admit that the average Chinese nowadays ethically is not quite like the "gentleman" of high Confucian value and ethics of old. I dont see how someone that has had such a large negative impact on Chinese culture,people,history,etc.. be called the father of China. The father of Modern China is by all means Sun Yat Sen.

[mariusj]

I would say that Qin Shi Huang is the Father of China. As far as modern China, then Sun Yat-sen for sure. Mao is definitely not the father of China.

You may say, Mao is not the father of Modern China, but you cannot deny Mao is the father of PRC.
The First Emperor may unit all land under one central government, but he is not the first TianZi.

As Wei Lung said earlier, If it wasn't for Zhongshan, Mao never would have gotten an education, therefore Mao respected him.

Eh, I beg to differ. Why would Mao never gotten an education if not for Sun? There are no proof except someone said so.

Also, If it wasn't for Mao, there would be no Cultural Revolution that destroyed thousands of years of irreplaceable Chinese culture and degraded and set back the Chinese people a few hundred years for sure.

Yes, Shang Yang is also the B****** who destroy real Chinese culture and set Qin back a few hundred years.. or DID HE?
You have a right of opinion, and I have the right to dispute with it.
Thousands years of irreplaceable Chinese culture is what prevented Qing from reforming and learning from the 'barbarian.' Its thousands years of irreplaceable Chinese culture that suppress woman, workforce that is almost if not more then half of Chinese population back then. Its thousands years of irreplaceable Chinese culture that held the words of the sages as absolute and there CAN be nothing wrong with these words, and if there are anything that can prove sages to be wrong then these words must be heresy. Its thousands years of irreplaceable Chinese culture that fought off scientific thoughts and promote superstition [I am just been a bit unfair here, everyone is superstition unless they switch to the scientific methods].

So, personally, I don't miss these destroyed culture that much. Nope, I don't like binding feet, I don't like woman is part of man's property, I don't like many things Mao destroy.
I suppose I should thank him after I meet my maker.

You have to admit that the average Chinese nowadays ethically is not quite like the "gentleman" of high Confucian value and ethics of old. I dont see how someone that has had such a large negative impact on Chinese culture,people,history,etc.. be called the father of China. The father of Modern China is by all means Sun Yat Sen.

Confucian value ask you to behave yourself. Certainly there are great morale standards like Zhu Xi [yes, if you felt you smell sarcasm, do not doubt ] or Hai Rui, those man who destroy 人欲, desire of man, and seek the heavenly path, but there are certainly as many corrupted man in old China as there are in the new china. Gentleman of high Confucian value do not, I tell you, gave to the poor, help the weak, fight injustice. They prostitute as often as man today, they steal as much money from the government as man today. Its not Mao who destroy our morale, but human desire.

[changsham]

You may say, Mao is not the father of Modern China, but you cannot deny Mao is the father of PRC.
The First Emperor may unit all land under one central government, but he is not the first TianZi.


Eh, I beg to differ. Why would Mao never gotten an education if not for Sun? There are no proof except someone said so.


Yes, Shang Yang is also the B****** who destroy real Chinese culture and set Qin back a few hundred years.. or DID HE?
You have a right of opinion, and I have the right to dispute with it.
Thousands years of irreplaceable Chinese culture is what prevented Qing from reforming and learning from the 'barbarian.' Its thousands years of irreplaceable Chinese culture that suppress woman, workforce that is almost if not more then half of Chinese population back then. Its thousands years of irreplaceable Chinese culture that held the words of the sages as absolute and there CAN be nothing wrong with these words, and if there are anything that can prove sages to be wrong then these words must be heresy. Its thousands years of irreplaceable Chinese culture that fought off scientific thoughts and promote superstition [I am just been a bit unfair here, everyone is superstition unless they switch to the scientific methods].

So, personally, I don't miss these destroyed culture that much. Nope, I don't like binding feet, I don't like woman is part of man's property, I don't like many things Mao destroy.
I suppose I should thank him after I meet my maker.



Confucian value ask you to behave yourself. Certainly there are great morale standards like Zhu Xi [yes, if you felt you smell sarcasm, do not doubt ] or Hai Rui, those man who destroy 人欲, desire of man, and seek the heavenly path, but there are certainly as many corrupted man in old China as there are in the new china. Gentleman of high Confucian value do not, I tell you, gave to the poor, help the weak, fight injustice. They prostitute as often as man today, they steal as much money from the government as man today. Its not Mao who destroy our morale, but human desire.

Hi all, if Mao can be considered as the "Great Helmsman" then Dr Sun must be the "Great Boat Builder". We will never know for sure what Sun's legacy would be like if he lived and continued his work. What is clear IMO is that his successors including Chiang Kai Shek were not up to the job and failed him. The only reason Chiang was able to maintain power in Taiwan was due to the fact of it's convenient isolation and the Communists lack of a decent navy to take the Island. And a few good friends like the USA were helpful too.

Regards
Paul

[Sephodwyrm]

Well, considering that Sun is also a hardcore opportunist...and that he only arrived in China after the events of Oct 10, 1911 played out.

Which he had little / no part of, btw.

[MattW]

Mao has to be acknowledged as the father of today's China, as he was instrumental in forming the PRC and setting it on the road to development and the position that it is in today. However, it is a very tricky point- Sun inspired many early 20th century Chinese to join new political movements like the Nationalists or the Communists, and some of his policies [e.g. land reform] were adopted or shared by the CCP. On the first page it was mentioned that the CCP has avoided labelling either one as the Father of China, and i think this is a very shrewd move to not alienate anybody. But, ultimately, it is Mao's picture that screams out from banknotes, it is Mao's picture that is all over China, and it is Mao who is still revered by millions of people.

[Chen06]

no clue how someone like him could be revered. he should be reviled

[MattW]

no clue how someone like him could be revered. he should be reviled

He had such a strong personal cult of personality- this is why he is revered. People are afraid to speak against Mao, so it might be the case that many people only revere him on the face of it. But as long as there are people in China who can remember Mao's period in power, he will be revered...

[Chen06]

People are afraid to speak against Mao, so it might be the case that many people only revere him on the face of it.

I cant disagree with that. Personally, I despise him with a passion

[MattW]

I cant disagree with that. Personally, I despise him with a passion

A quote i once read in a book: 'When Mao died, China breathed a huge sigh of relief. People wept, not with sadness but with joy.'

[Chen06]

Of course, I dont think that many people in China would admit to that though deep down many would definitely feel that way.

[MattW]

Of course, I dont think that many people in China would admit to that though deep down many would definitely feel that way.

Yes, its not really the done thing to admit feelings like that in the PRC.

[William O'Chee]

If we are going to nominate someone to be the Father of Modern China then it has to be Sun. Mao was a revolutionary (or maybe just a more sophisticated warlord) but he was never the Father of Modern China. Mao imagined and created a new regime. Sun imagined and created a democracy.

[MattW]

If we are going to nominate someone to be the Father of Modern China then it has to be Sun. Mao was a revolutionary (or maybe just a more sophisticated warlord) but he was never the Father of Modern China. Mao imagined and created a new regime. Sun imagined and created a democracy.

I can imagine a China similar to today's one without Sun Yat Sen, but not a China without Mao. He is too instrumental in modern chinese history to not be regarded as the father of that country. I agreee that Sun had the vision, but Mao was the man who started to realise that vision.

[William O'Chee]

I can imagine a China similar to today's one without Sun Yat Sen, but not a China without Mao. He is too instrumental in modern chinese history to not be regarded as the father of that country. I agreee that Sun had the vision, but Mao was the man who started to realise that vision.

I think you under-estimate the role Sun played. he did more than have a vision, as he actually organised to make it a reality. That is why I was very careful to say he "imagined and created a democracy." Mao did not give effect to Sun's vision. He inherited it, but also perverted it into just another regime. In fact few if any of the positive things about modern China can be attributed to Mao. They have been made possible by Deng and his successors.

[MattW]

I think you under-estimate the role Sun played. he did more than have a vision, as he actually organised to make it a reality. That is why I was very careful to say he "imagined and created a democracy." Mao did not give effect to Sun's vision. He inherited it, but also perverted it into just another regime. In fact few if any of the positive things about modern China can be attributed to Mao. They have been made possible by Deng and his successors.

The reality that Sun created was not an effectively grounded one, as Mao was very easily able to sweep it aside with his 'perverse' regime. I think that there are good things about modern China that can be attibuted to Mao- China's strong international diplomatic position for example. Mao's period in power saw the beginning of new relations with the US and other such countries which helped China to turn a corner in foreign affairs. I agree that Deng must be given credit for his modernisations e.t.c, but Mao was instrumental in founding the PRC, and he provided the platform upon which Deng was able to build.