147 replies to this topic

[changsham]

Hi all, I believe Mao's greatest achievement was uniting the country as a whole (sans Taiwan) and making it strong enough to get rid of all the foreign interference in China's affairs. Suns democracy left the country weak. disunited and easily manipulated or sabotaged by foreign powers despite his vision and the lack of vision of his successors. In the end his democracy came to nothing.

The best that I could say for Mao in his defence is that the country was intact, strong and stable which was a good launch pad for the rapid rise of China since his demise. But I would not give him any credit for any of the economic achievements since his death. I think he was basically clueless in that regard. And his crimes against Chinese culture were unforgivable.


I guess that since the end of Qing, the jobs been too big for any one leader . Sun, Chiang, Mao, Deng and his successors have all contributed their share to varying degrees. I would say about Mao's share was that he did most of the dirty work required and Chiang did some too.


Sometimes I try to picture what China would have been like now if Sun lived for another 20 years. If Chiang Kai Shek was victorious over Mao or even if Lu Shaoqui was allowed to remain in power. Many possibilities here both good and bad.

Edited by changsham, 23 October 2008 - 07:37 PM.

[MattW]

The best that I could say for Mao in his defence is that the country was intact, strong and stable which was a good launch pad for the rapid rise of China since his demise.

I am not sure China was entirely stable on Mao's death- see the various Cultural Revolution threads i post on on to see why- but the expression 'a good launch pad' is what i was struggling to find- Mao provided the springboard for Deng e.t.c to launch a new policy line. He cann;t be credited for Deng's economic policies as they were definitely against the Chairman's views on economic policy. This springboard effect is what makes Mao the father of modern China.

[changsham]

Hi MattW, I did edit my post from "relatively stable' to "stable" before I posted. But I do agree with your point about the CR. But in this time the power of the Communist Party was not really under serious threat. I think any sense of instability had more to do with internal power struggles and the lunacy of Mao's cultural policies rather than the security of the country.

Edited by changsham, 23 October 2008 - 07:35 PM.

[MattW]

Hi MattW, I did edit my post from "relatively stable' to "stable" before I posted. But I do agree with your point about the CR. But in this time the power of the Communist Party was not really under serious threat. I think any sense of instability had more to do with internal power struggles and the lunacy of Mao's cultural policies rather than the security of the country.

At the time i think the CCP was only threatened by what it had created- an overly-powerful and influential army, groups of revolutionaries wandering the country and a hostiile international situation r.e the USSR.

[peepee]

I think Dr Sun is undisputable founding father of China,his revolutionary led to the creation of Republic of China.

Edited by peepee, 24 October 2008 - 12:17 AM.

[mariusj]

Hi all, I believe Mao's greatest achievement was uniting the country as a whole (sans Taiwan) and making it strong enough to get rid of all the foreign interference in China's affairs. Suns democracy left the country weak. disunited and easily manipulated or sabotaged by foreign powers despite his vision and the lack of vision of his successors. In the end his democracy came to nothing.

You think the nation was weak b/c of the democracy, or b/c the process how the democracy was formed?
Is the disunited nation a result of lack of ability of the democracy, or was it b/c the necessary steps to overthrow Qing?
How was Sun's republic sabotaged by foreign powers?
And how did his democracy came to nothing? Last time I check my map, someone still call Sun the founding father, and his flag still fly.

The best that I could say for Mao in his defence is that the country was intact, strong and stable which was a good launch pad for the rapid rise of China since his demise. But I would not give him any credit for any of the economic achievements since his death. I think he was basically clueless in that regard. And his crimes against Chinese culture were unforgivable.

The sheer amount of effort require to make a nation ravaged by more then a century of continuous warfare, utterly deprived of modern capitals, and transferring it into something Deng can work with is something that is worthy of praise and applaud. Economics doesn't grow like magic trees, in fact, it decline when the necessary inputs are not there, and China at the founding of PRC, lack much of it, but in less then 30 years, China recover most if not all of its prior economic strength not relative to the world output, and this is including the chaotic time of C.R. Certainly, I am not defending his macro-economics, nor am I saying none of his decisions were wrong, however I think its also wrong to deprive him of his due credit.

Sometimes I try to picture what China would have been like now if Sun lived for another 20 years. If Chiang Kai Shek was victorious over Mao or even if Lu Shaoqui was allowed to remain in power. Many possibilities here both good and bad.

Liu Shaoqi was far from a good man; he is the man who lead the faction that claimed father's sin pass down to children, and children of those who are anti-revolutionary are also anti-revolutionary, it is their nature. I don't think it would be a good day for China. I prefer chaotic time of C.R were you actually got a chance to fight back rather then someone high up predetermine that you are a traitor and condemned you for actions most likely committed before your birth.

I think Dr Sun is undisputable founding father of China,his revolutionary led to the creation of Republic of China.

Hehe. A friendly comment, does this mean China was born in 1911, since its founding father was Sun Yet San, and that all those before the founding of ROC are not China? Or, you meant to say Sun Yet San was the founding father of Modern China?

Edited by mariusj, 24 October 2008 - 02:52 AM.

[peepee]

Hehe. A friendly comment, does this mean China was born in 1911, since its founding father was Sun Yet San, and that all those before the founding of ROC are not China? Or, you meant to say Sun Yet San was the founding father of Modern China?

Yes,the country was never named China until Sun Yet San founded the ' republic ' which ended 3500 years of imperial dynasty rule.

[ShingenT]

I have always thogutht every Chinese people revered Sun as the Father of modern China. regardless of their political stand point.
My old history teacher told me that Sun is actually very respected in PROC, they only hated Chiang.

[Chen06]

Yeah, unlike CKS and Mao.... Sun is universally loved and revered in both the ROC and PRC.

[William O'Chee]

The reality that Sun created was not an effectively grounded one, as Mao was very easily able to sweep it aside with his 'perverse' regime. I think that there are good things about modern China that can be attibuted to Mao- China's strong international diplomatic position for example. Mao's period in power saw the beginning of new relations with the US and other such countries which helped China to turn a corner in foreign affairs. I agree that Deng must be given credit for his modernisations e.t.c, but Mao was instrumental in founding the PRC, and he provided the platform upon which Deng was able to build.

To be the Father of Modern China requires on to have paternal instincts towards it, to care for and nurture it as a father would his children. A father may discipline his children, but would never butcher and starve them in their millions. IMHO, you mistake being father of modern China with being its master or oppressor. The CCP today is recognising many of the terrible things Mao did, or allowed to be done. I believe there is more to be admitted yet from his rule.

The China we see today was nothing like the one Mao ruled over. Just last month I saw a speech by a very senior Chinese diplomat in which he admitted that as a young person he grew up always hungry because there was not enough food. It itself, this was a condemnation of Mao's rule, and also a testament to how China has turned its back on Mao. Nobody would have publicly said such things in Mao's China for fear of the repercussions. Modern China, in spite of its Communist rule is more like the country Sun created than the one Mao ruled.

[MattW]

To be the Father of Modern China requires on to have paternal instincts towards it, to care for and nurture it as a father would his children.

Make no mistake, i am making no mistakes about what it means to be the 'father' of modern China. Mao cared deeply for China and the Chinese Revolution, enough that he was prepared to sarcafice a son in war, leave one of his earlier wives when his interests in Communism called for him to be elsewhere. These are only two examples that show Mao's dedication to the Revolution- he have up everything for it. Today's China is built on the Revolution that Mao was instrumental in instigating, making him the Father [but also the butcher] of Modern China.

[shunyadragon]

Perhaps the best answer to this is to ask:
1. Must the photo of the statesman hung most prominently be that of "father of the country"?

2. Must there always be a "father of the country"?

Many countries do not have an officially designated "father of the country".

While living in China, the view of Sun was varied and he was controversial to say the least. Many criticized him for not doing enough to end the influence of old China, but others did consider him the 'Father of modern China.' In Shenyang, Zhongshan Lu riuns across the circle that has Mao's (huge) statue still called by many Sun Zhongshan Circle.

Many Chinese do not realize Sun's health was not good in the last years of his life, and this probably limited what he could accomplish in unifying a modern China.

Mao may also be considered one of the other fathers of China, but in reality during the revolution the list is longer than one.

[ShingenT]

孫中山於民國14年3月12日因肝癌逝世,當時於北京中央公園社稷壇舉行公祭時,豫軍總司令樊鍾秀特致送巨型素花橫額(闊丈餘,高四、五尺),當中大書「國父」二字,他的唁電輓幛,均稱「國父」,這是孫中山在公開場合被尊稱為「國父」之始。

抗日戰爭中期的1940年3月21日,國民黨中央常務委員會第143次會議決議:尊稱本黨總理為國父,以表尊崇。根據中常會的決議,國民政府以孫中山先生倡導國民革命,手創中華民國,更新政體,永奠邦基,謀世界之大同,求國際之平等,光被四表,功高萬世,于同年4月1日明令全國自是日起,尊稱總理孫中山為中華民國國父。

但是各地黨政機關、民眾團體在不同的場合無所適從,不知究竟是稱孫中山先生為總理或是國父?同年5月29日,國民政府又發布明令,規定在政府機關、民眾團體應一律改稱國父,在國民黨黨內稱國父或總理均可,民間已印就之圖書文字,不必強令改易。自此之後,孫中山即在中國歷史上確立了其「國父」的地位。

汪精衛於南京建立的親日政權也尊崇孫中山,並作出了一系列規定。1941年5月29日,在汪政府的中央政治委員會第49次會議通過的,由陳公博提出的「手創中華民國之中國國民黨總理孫中山先生應尊稱為中華民國國父」的議案,即屬一例,同時規定有關「公牘、教科書籍、報紙、刊物及一切文字稱述總理或孫先生時,均應改稱國父」。

中華人民共和國成立後,則未以官方名義規定中華人民共和國或中國的國父為孫中山或其他任何人。中華人民共和國政府或中國共產黨在正式的場合或文書上提及孫中山時,通常使用的稱號是「革命的先行者」,從未稱孫中山為國父。不過,中國共產黨無論在推翻中華民國大陸政權前或後,都尊稱孫氏是「中共的老師」和「革命的旗幟」[3],民間則有人沿襲民國時代稱孫中山先生為「國父」的這一做法。另外孫中山先生之夫人宋慶齡女士,因為在中華人民共和國時期享有較中華民國時期更崇高的地位,有時也被人進而尊稱為「國母」。[4]

中共的[20024]號文件 2002年11月修訂的《關於正確使用涉台宣傳用語的意見》中,規定「對台北「國立國父紀念館」不直接稱謂,可稱台北中山紀念館。」 另外台灣的教育部也在2007年建議修改不適當用詞,如「國父孫中山」應該為「孫中山先生」。有些人認為是台灣民進黨政府進行去中國化。

PRC dont call him Father, but rather Teacher, 民主革命的先行者

and lots of people often forget Song Jiaoren, 宋教仁, and what he did for modern China.

[ahxiang]

Hi all, I believe Mao's greatest achievement was uniting the country as a whole (sans Taiwan) and making it strong enough to get rid of all the foreign interference in China's affairs. Suns democracy left the country weak. disunited and easily manipulated or sabotaged by foreign powers despite his vision and the lack of vision of his successors. In the end his democracy came to nothing.

The best that I could say for Mao in his defence is that the country was intact, strong and stable which was a good launch pad for the rapid rise of China since his demise. But I would not give him any credit for any of the economic achievements since his death. I think he was basically clueless in that regard. And his crimes against Chinese culture were unforgivable.


I guess that since the end of Qing, the jobs been too big for any one leader . Sun, Chiang, Mao, Deng and his successors have all contributed their share to varying degrees. I would say about Mao's share was that he did most of the dirty work required and Chiang did some too.


Sometimes I try to picture what China would have been like now if Sun lived for another 20 years. If Chiang Kai Shek was victorious over Mao or even if Lu Shaoqui was allowed to remain in power. Many possibilities here both good and bad.

New members like you better do some good studies before posting argumentative but non-factual statements, such as "Mao's greatest achievement was uniting the country as a whole (sans Taiwan) and making it strong enough to get rid of all the foreign interference in China's affairs".

China, in 1943, had abolished unequal treaties - EXTRATERRITORIALITY. The Brtish or American no longer had in-river navigation rights in China. The mixed counts, which was a compromise adopted from 1928-9 onward, were abolished as well.

This is a common fallacy among PRC-born people to claim that Mao and the communists had abolished the unequal treaties.

And, Mao did not have United Nations membership till 1972, not to mention gaining international prestige among the world community.

Only enemies of China, like the British, had recognized Mao and PRC since day one.

[changsham]

Were we talking about unequal treaties? Where does this leave the Japanese in 1943? Were they welcome guests? Was China a great superpower in 1943? Was China politically united? Did Chaing Kai Shek make China into a strong country before Mao stole it out of his pocket? Are you suggesting no interference would have come later? Were not most of the meddling powers burdened with their own troubles in 1943? Would you say the USA, the USSR or others would not have tried to meddle in China's affairs at a later stage if Mao's China was not strong enough?

I also suggest you stick to the topic and try to restrain your contempt for new members.

Edited by changsham, 24 October 2008 - 10:59 PM.