346 replies to this topic

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I'm perfectly willing to keep it civil if he does. I have no sympathy and patience for nationalist history, even less so for someone that stubbornly defends it and attack others who debunks their warped perspective.

[Tungus]

is Han Shu Di Li Zhi "汉书地理志"？ A geography survey, right?

Edited by Tungus, 18 July 2007 - 03:34 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

It includes the geography and the population census.

[WangKon936]

Let's keep the geography straight. Today's Liao Ning is Liao Dong. Inconsistant romanization of areas over history can be confusing.

Your reading and interpretation of the records here appear to be selective. They would imply that the Han population in Manchuria and Liaodong was at a majority from the 3rd century BCE to present day and that's not true.

The Han population being the majority (but not a huge majority as it is today) was fairly consistant after the Khitan conquest of Parhae.

It is true that there was Chinese migration to Manchuria and the Korean peninsula from different parts of China. I hear there were significant numbers of Qin speakers in some of the Han commanderies. However, I don't know for sure if we can equate this with a Han ethnicity. China in the 3rd cent BCE was pretty ethnically diverse itself. Archeological evidence would show that Chinese civilization did not extend far beyond the centers of administrative control. You must weigh textual evidence with archeological evidence.

[WangKon936]

I'm perfectly willing to keep it civil if he does. I have no sympathy and patience for nationalist history, even less so for someone that stubbornly defends it and attack others who debunks their warped perspective.

Still, do not revert to ad hominem type attacks/defenses. You have been on CHF for awhile. You know that!

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Let's keep the geography straight. Today's Liao Ning is Liao Dong. Inconsistant romanization of areas over history can be confusing.

Your reading and interpretation of the records here appear to be selective.

Actually, Liao Ning today includes both Liao Xi and Liao Dong of Han times, although the later significantly outnumbers the former, during the Tang Liao Dong has a population of some 900,000, while Liao Xi only has around 150,000. I made a mistake in my reading however, the 280,000 wasn't Wei Man's men, but those of Chosun king You Qu's. And they were settled in Xuan Tu and Le Lang, as well as the interior of China. I already edited my post. However these registered household in Liao Dong and Liao Xi were mostly men that were migrated there since the Han conquest.

They would imply that the Han population in Manchuria and Liaodong was at a majority from the 3rd century BCE to present day and that's not true.

The Han population being the majority (but not a huge majority as it is today) was fairly consistant after the Khitan conquest of Parhae.

It is true that there was Chinese migration to Manchuria and the Korean peninsula from different parts of China. I hear there were significant numbers of Qin speakers in some of the Han commanderies. However, I don't know for sure if we can equate this with a Han ethnicity. China in the 3rd cent BCE was pretty ethnically diverse itself. Archeological evidence would show that Chinese civilization did not extend far beyond the centers of administrative control. You must weigh textual evidence with archeological evidence.

Which archeological evidence refutes this? The fact that Han created the Can Hai prefecture in Liao Dong, and extended their control into the Korean peninsula in the form of the Le Lang, Jian Tuan, Zhen Fan, and Xuan Tu prefectures are proven by archeological discovery. We can't possibly prove demographic size in archeology. Its true that there might be periods when the Han people in Liao Dong were outnumbered by others after the Han dynasty(such as during Koguryo's time), but for the most part, even then, the Han made up a significant portion of Manchuria's population, and for much of history, the majority. We have constant testimony of that through out history in different records. For example, Samguk Sagi mentions this: In 197 "The middle kiongdom is in great chaos, the Han people who entered this area was numerous."
During Sui Yang Di's attack on Koguryo, its mentioned that "of the 305,000 men that entered Liao Dong city, only 27,000 returned...(the rest) is all lost. Most of these surrendered to Koguryo and were placed in Liao Dong. Furthermore, both the Bei Shi and the Samguk Sagi mentions Koguryo kidnapping tens of thousands of Han people into Liao Dong as well as Han migration. We know for a fact that the area is populated with Han people.

Edited by warhead, 28 February 2008 - 09:30 PM.

[Tungus]

Let's keep the geography straight. Today's Liao Ning is Liao Dong. Inconsistant romanization of areas over history can be confusing.

No....Today's Liao Ning is not Liao Dong. Liao Dong in classic Chinese means the east of Liao river. (sometimes the meaning of Laiodong extended to part of North Korea. ) Even though the meaning of Liaodong changes over time. But in the majority of time, it refered to east of Liao river. It's very consistent if read enough Classic Chinese text. Today's Liaoning province crosses over both sides of Liao river. As matter of fact, The Laio river divides Liaoning province right in the center.

Edited by Tungus, 18 July 2007 - 04:12 PM.

[YuenKamSiu]

This is the only topic in the entire CHF that the History is relevent to what is current event.
I would limit any opinion based posts in here.
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I don't think any Nomads ever was "sinicized" but they were "civilized" and immitated their subject's culture to become more acceptable ruler.

You just contradicted yourself here. To imitate their subjects culture (that is the Chinese culture) was sinicization. That was/is the very definition of sinicization.

[xng]

I'm perfectly willing to keep it civil if he does. I have no sympathy and patience for nationalist history, even less so for someone that stubbornly defends it and attack others who debunks their warped perspective.

Yes, let's keep it civil and listen to everyone's views.

We can understand that Hesoubi is nationalistic.

This analogy reminds me of the malays call to get back Singapore into malay hands.

It is quite sensitive. The chinese don't want to relinguish singapore but the malays want it 'returned'.

What about the land that russia annexed from manchuria ? Shouldn't this be returned as well ?

What about the land that australia, canada, america annexed from the natives ?

We must understand that borders do change and human migration redefine the borders.

Edited by xng, 19 July 2007 - 10:37 AM.

[xng]

I have yet to see a post with direct reference to Chinese source on N.E. Asian project, how do they see Koguryo as Chinese Vassaldom for entire 700+ years of existance. The time between the end of Han to beginning of Sui, no Chinese politcal entity had continuation of more than a generation ( appx. 40 years ) as it seems.

I am not an expert in korean history but I do remember that north korea and the NE china was part of China during the Han dynasty. Han dynasty reign was more than a generation.

See this link. I think I posted a lot of chinese dynasty maps in other subforums just in case you doubt wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia....age:Han_map.jpg

You might want to look at other dynasties map.

Edited by xng, 19 July 2007 - 11:02 PM.

[DaMo]

I am not an expert in korean history but I do remember that north korea and the NE china was part of China during the Han dynasty. Han dynasty reign was more than a generation.

See this link. I think I posted a lot of chinese dynasty maps in other subforums just in case you doubt wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia....age:Han_map.jpg

You might want to look at other dynasties map.

Make that "part of north korea and NE china was part of China during part of the Han dynasty".

[xng]

Make that "part of north korea and NE china was part of China during part of the Han dynasty".

Sure. No problem.

Part of NE china was also part of china during the ming dynasty.

http://www.chinahigh...dynasty-map.htm