27 replies to this topic

[xing]

This seems like the best place i can find to post this thread. if it is redundant and/or inappropriate, i do apologise.

I got interested after looking through the tang beauty marks thread as well as some of the costumes thread(debates on hanfu and the manchu clothings) but i'm definitely not talking about clothes or their sense of style here. More like what is considered beautiful and what isnt.

Society has many standards of pretty. Xishi with her heart condition and waif figure was considered to be pretty while yang guifei and her voloptious body was considered to be pretty as well. While many taiwanese, japanese and korean girls tend to go for the anime look with too small face and too big eyes. So my question is:

What are traditionally the traits that are supposedly pretty.

Take The four lengendary beauties. From their portraits, i only find wang zhao jun pretty. And that wasnt because of her feautures. More like a feeling you get. Like class, dignity and that slightly sorrowful expression about her together with all the stories that you hear about her that makes her pretty.

Move forward a little.

Xiao zhuang empress was given a tittle man mong di yi mei nv(the prettiest lady in all of mongolia and manchuria) but when you look at her portraits, she is decent at most. not ugly but definitely not pretty either. just dignified i guess.

So what is exactly features that are well sort after during ancient/imperial china?

i'm most interested in qing and yuan actually and also a generic one that spans across the dynasties.

[Mok]

Fair skin, flawless complexion, large eyes, soft delicate features - all of which I do not possess, so I'm not considered a beauty by my own people's standards. Heh.

Mok

[xing]

hehs. totally didnt expect such a fast reply.

fair skin would have had symbolised the upper crust women who coul afford to stay indoors all day. get waited upon by maids and never have to see the sun. and throughout history, we have ALWAYS wanted to emulate the upper crust.

flawless skin is well a definite i think cos it would have signify health and fertility.

so these 2 are pretty universal.

but i've got a question, from pictures, most concubines/empress never had huge eyes or soft delicate features. wu ze tian has such small eyes! ditto yang guifei of tang dynasty, xiao zhuang empress of qing and not forgeting cixi as well. or was it because these pictures were drawn or produced in their old age so they dont look as good as before?

also, we know that beauty is not just the physical aspects. what are the so called virtues that were desirable in women? and whats the difference between dynasties? i know for a good part of han cluture, women were supposed to be kept weak(confucious ideologies) but what about the yuan? where woman were more like a partner and less like a plaything. i refer to mogolian royalties. and what about qing dynasty? were the treatment of han woman and the manchu woman the same? as in were the judge on the same standards of beauty?

[DaMo]

Actually, if you look at Han and Tang dynasty depiction of women, large eyes do not seem to be idealized in particular.

[Peter S]

Actually, if you look at Han and Tang dynasty depiction of women, large eyes do not seem to be idealized in particular.

I agree with you that large eyes were not necessary. Almond eyes in the shape of the moon were deisrable. (Double upper eye lids)

Skin colour of (white) jade. Straight nose - not too flat and not too large. Small mouth.

(I notice that some movies made in China use Eurasian lead actresses masquerading as Hua women. Perhaps that is the trend to define beautiful Hua women?)

I am sure that Mok is a rare beauty. (Like Helen of Troy - a face that launched a thousand ships.)

[xing]

that makes sense.

from most of the protraits seen of supposedly beautiful tang women, they all had almond shape eyes. rather small but definitely almond shape. and a small mouth.

however, do you mind providing a link where i can do more reading up on the changing perceptions of beauty throughout china's history?

also, i've come under the impression that it was better to look dignified(as in qing xiu) rather than drop dead gorgeous or exotic(yan li) is this true? or did they exist many forms of beauty as is now?

[Peter S]

that makes sense.

from most of the protraits seen of supposedly beautiful tang women, they all had almond shape eyes. rather small but definitely almond shape. and a small mouth.

however, do you mind providing a link where i can do more reading up on the changing perceptions of beauty throughout china's history?

also, i've come under the impression that it was better to look dignified(as in qing xiu) rather than drop dead gorgeous or exotic(yan li) is this true? or did they exist many forms of beauty as is now?

Sorry I don't know that link; perhaps some else has it.

Also long face (totally unmongoloid looking), fairly long neck (but not as long as some European beauties), and slim.

I remember watching some HK beauty contests. There were some Eurasian beauties among the contestants. The Eurasian beauties never won (not politically correct for the Eurasian beauties to win?)

[Mok]

The Eurasian beauties never won (not politically correct for the Eurasian beauties to win?)

That's not true. Michelle Reis, half-Portuguese half-Chinese, was Miss HK 1987. A simple scan of the Miss HK winners will show you that Eurasians are not excluded.

Mok

[Peter S]

That's not true. Michelle Reis, half-Portuguese half-Chinese, was Miss HK 1987. A simple scan of the Miss HK winners will show you that Eurasians are not excluded.

Mok

Constant debate whether Eurasian beauties should be allowed in Miss Chinatown contests. Pros and Cons for inclusion or exclusion.

I am for exclusion of Eurasians from Miss Chinatown contests. Poor Chinese lady has one shot at fame and popularity. The Eurasian beauties can and do participate in regular beauty contests.

Chinese professional Association: We had a half Korean member once. He left and became the President of the Korean Professional Association. No Eurasian yet.

[DaMo]

I actually heard of a Miss Chinatown pageant on the West Coast a couple of years ago that was won by a half-Black half-Chinese woman.

The issue, though, is a difficult one. Is it a question of blood alone? Or of culture?

If the former, how much is enough? Would that exclude someone who is half- or three-quarters-Chinese? What if the remainder is not Caucasian but Korean or Mongol? What about a really Caucasian-looking Uighur?

If the latter, again, how much is enough? Would that include someone who has no Chinese blood, but uses Chinese language and follows Chinese culture? Would that include, say, a Caucasian who was raised in China?

These ethnic pagents therefore tend to tread heavily in the grey area between the "one-drop" and "like-a-duck" rules. e.g. from a cursory scan, many Miss Black USA contestants and winners appear to be mixed bloods, but not white enough by some arbitrary standard.

[Kimchee]

I am for exclusion of Eurasians from Miss Chinatown contests. Poor Chinese lady has one shot at fame and popularity. The Eurasian beauties can and do participate in regular beauty contests.

What constitutes a "regular" beauty contest? Chinese ladies can compete in any beauty contest, too... I've seen that Asian women seem to make the top 10 finalists for the Miss Universe pageant all the time. Although in the 2007 pageant, they weren't Chinese, but Japanese and Korean...

Here's an article with the names...

http://www.wtop.com/...114&sid=1152350

Please explain why would you exclude an Eurasian from a Miss Chinatown contest? If she's half (or a quarter, or an eighth) Chinese... I don't see the problem. She has Chinese heritage, it's just not 100%.

Kimchee

[Peter S]

I actually heard of a Miss Chinatown pageant on the West Coast a couple of years ago that was won by a half-Black half-Chinese woman.

The issue, though, is a difficult one. Is it a question of blood alone? Or of culture?

If the former, how much is enough? Would that exclude someone who is half- or three-quarters-Chinese? What if the remainder is not Caucasian but Korean or Mongol? What about a really Caucasian-looking Uighur?

If the latter, again, how much is enough? Would that include someone who has no Chinese blood, but uses Chinese language and follows Chinese culture? Would that include, say, a Caucasian who was raised in China?

These ethnic pagents therefore tend to tread heavily in the grey area between the "one-drop" and "like-a-duck" rules. e.g. from a cursory scan, many Miss Black USA contestants and winners appear to be mixed bloods, but not white enough by some arbitrary standard.

Is Xing asking about Hua beauties or all beauties within the now PRC and ROC? (Were the best looking women in China non-Hua ethnic women - Xianbei, Wu, Yue?)

The most beautiful women I have seen are Iranian women. I am the wrong person to answer Xing's question?

[Peter S]

I actually heard of a Miss Chinatown pageant on the West Coast a couple of years ago that was won by a half-Black half-Chinese woman.

The issue, though, is a difficult one. Is it a question of blood alone? Or of culture?

If the former, how much is enough? Would that exclude someone who is half- or three-quarters-Chinese? What if the remainder is not Caucasian but Korean or Mongol? What about a really Caucasian-looking Uighur?

If the latter, again, how much is enough? Would that include someone who has no Chinese blood, but uses Chinese language and follows Chinese culture? Would that include, say, a Caucasian who was raised in China?

These ethnic pagents therefore tend to tread heavily in the grey area between the "one-drop" and "like-a-duck" rules. e.g. from a cursory scan, many Miss Black USA contestants and winners appear to be mixed bloods, but not white enough by some arbitrary standard.

For Miss Chinatown, it is partly cultural. Most of the young Eurasian people I have met, apart from tokenism, are not really interested or even knowledgeable in Chinese culture. To elect one of them to become Miss Chinatown and represent the Chinese community would be unsuitable.

Even for Miss Black USA, I think that the contestant has to have some interest and knowledge of Black American culture (so it is more than one-drop or one bucket).

I suppose a Chinese lady can enter the regular beauty contest. But after reading the European description of Attila's (supposedly Mongoloid) looks, would any Chinese lady bother?

[DaMo]

Yeah, not to mention Chinese-American girls who may be "pure-blooded" but have zero cultural sense.

[xing]

oh no. dont fight.

i think you ladies here got me wrong.

what i meant was what are the features that were considered beautiful in ancient/imperial china with specific refeernces to the yuan and the qing dynasty because these 2 are not traditionally han chinese dynasties but were ruled by the minorities. so i was wondering if there are differences between standards of beauty among this 2 dynasties as compared to the other dynasties where the ruler was a han chinese.

my second question was that if there is, was this traditional standards of beauty held by the people themselves(namely the mongolians and the manchus) before they came into the central plains or were their perceptions of beauty influenced by the han's perception of beauty?

finally, what kind of beauty was prefered then? was it better for a girl to look good but have a lowly birth or was it better for a girl to look average but come from a good/royal family(ming men zhi hou)? and did they prefer women then who looked exotic, sharp features, the bold kind of beauty(or yan4 li4 in chinese) or those that have less sharp feautures but more demure looking(qing1 xiu4 in chinese).

Edited by xing, 20 July 2007 - 03:49 AM.