16 replies to this topic

[Sima Qian]

Cao Cao, if eliminated at Battle of Red Cliff might have changed history altogether.

So according to RTK, why did Zhuge Liang decide to take a gamble and use Guan Yu at Hua Rong?

Surely he should know that despite of the military pledge, Guan Yu would let Cao Cao off in view of his debt earlier on.

Couldn't he have rotated military operations with other commanders?

[snowybeagle]

If we're discussing history, the encounter between Guan Yü and Cao Cao at Huarong road never happened. The incident was an invention of the author of the novel.

If we're discussing the novel (which then I'd recommend moving this thread to Chinese literature), the reasoning provided by Zhuge Liang was that he did not want to see the north fragmented among ambitious warlords - which he was certain would happen should Cao Cao were to die, or be captured.

That would make the task of reunification harder, in his line of reasoning, or at least, cause the common folks in the north to suffer more.

[Sima Qian]

If we're discussing history, the encounter between Guan Yü and Cao Cao at Huarong road never happened. The incident was an invention of the author of the novel.

If we're discussing the novel (which then I'd recommend moving this thread to Chinese literature), the reasoning provided by Zhuge Liang was that he did not want to see the north fragmented among ambitious warlords - which he was certain would happen should Cao Cao were to die, or be captured.

That would make the task of reunification harder, in his line of reasoning, or at least, cause the common folks in the north to suffer more.

Yes, I was referring to the novel, thanks for pointing that out.

I tend to think that the novelist wants to show Zhuge Liang's brillance in a subtle way. Apart from the novel, is there other ways to decipher this man's intelligence factually?

[sima old bandit]

Surely he should know that despite of the military pledge, Guan Yu would let Cao Cao off in view of his debt earlier on.

It also let Guan Yu to be alleviated of his debt to Cao Cao. In addition, Guan Yu was proud and arrogant and as we saw ZL's authority came under question from him. Having Guan Yu humbled in such a way, he would now be much easier to handle.

ZL's vision is for a tripod division of China, if Cao Cao is destroyed the other warlords may become far too powerful whilst they themselves are unable to found their own state. Thus the status quo is to their benefit.

[jubilee]

So is there any online version Of San Guo Zhi where I can read the 3 Kingdoms history?

[Ma Su]

I don't think the SGZ has ever fully be translated into English. You can find some SGZ bio's 3kingdoms.net and kongming.net. SGYY's ones are novel and comprehensive aren't always reliable

[snowybeagle]

So is there any online version Of San Guo Zhi where I can read the 3 Kingdoms history?

http://www.guoxue.co...ngzz/sgzzml.htm

[Aaron]

If we're discussing the novel (which then I'd recommend moving this thread to Chinese literature), the reasoning provided by Zhuge Liang was that he did not want to see the north fragmented among ambitious warlords - which he was certain would happen should Cao Cao were to die, or be captured.

That would make the task of reunification harder, in his line of reasoning, or at least, cause the common folks in the north to suffer more.

Just some of my logic, but wouldn't a fragmented north make reunification easier since he only has to deal with each part one at a time as opposed to one united country?

[snowybeagle]

Just some of my logic, but wouldn't a fragmented north make reunification easier since he only has to deal with each part one at a time as opposed to one united country?

Since the event is fictional, all the speculations must defer to the novel rather than history.

A couple of reasons why Zhuge Liang would not want to see the north fragmented with the death of Cao Cao.

First, it gave opportunities for Sun Quan from the south and Ma Teng from the north to advance, seize the Han Emperor and become the next "Cao Cao". At this time, Liu Bei was in a very weak position without a stable base of his own, while Sun Quan and Ma Teng were well established in their respective domains with strong armies of their own.



Second, even without considering the presence of stronger rival warlords, Zhuge Liang's idea was not to fight for every piece of the northern territories. He needed time to allow Liu Bei establish himself in Jingzhou and Yizhou, and then build a strong army to move north to retake the symbolically important places like Chang'an and Luoyang, rescue the emperor etc., but most importantly, defeat Cao Cao.

It was hoped that with victory over the leadership, the rest of Cao Cao's faction will also be persuaded to submit to Liu Bei, restorer of the Han regime.

It's like a choice - beat the one chief of a big gang and win his entire turf, or beat several chiefs of several smaller turfs to gain the same total size of territories.

[arrowhead]

In history,

did Cao Cao and his officials flee in the red cliff battle without being captured?
Why didnt zhou Yu or zhuge Liang send men to capture them?

Edited by arrowhead, 03 August 2007 - 08:05 PM.

[snowybeagle]

In history,

did Cao Cao and his officials flee in the red cliff battle without being captured?
Why didnt zhou Yu or zhuge Liang send men to capture them?

In history, Cao Cao's defeat at Battle of Red Cliffs wasn't the rout the novel made it out to be.

Much of his forces retreated in good order. The Sun-Liu alliance didn't have what was necessary in terms of manpower nor geographical positioning to capture Cao Cao.

See Battle of Chibi thread for more info.

[Xiao Xian Nu]

Cao Cao, if eliminated at Battle of Red Cliff might have changed history altogether.

So according to RTK, why did Zhuge Liang decide to take a gamble and use Guan Yu at Hua Rong?

Surely he should know that despite of the military pledge, Guan Yu would let Cao Cao off in view of his debt earlier on.

Couldn't he have rotated military operations with other commanders?

IMHO, regardless whether the story was merely a fiction or a real incident, this incident pinpoints us 2 great things to learn. Im greatly sharing this because I believe this 2 things will be useful in our life one day .

Sorry for a longy description
What I learned from this incident is :

1) Zhuge Liang had foreseen this incident would happen if he put Guan Yu on that post. However, he kept on with his plan to let Guan Yu paid off his debt when he met Cao Cao this time. He eventually had another greater plan that would involve Guan Yu. If he would't have let Cao Cao and his crushed force passed through (considering it as a payback), Guan Yu would still let him go another time. It would just ruin the whole set-up scheme.
What I learn from this incident is, sometimes we have to make a lil sacrifaction to get another one, which perhaps occurs right after that.

2) "When pushing enemies to the edge, the enemy will fight their way to their last blood" - Sun Tzu. I think Zhuge Liang tried to apply one of the great Master Sun's tactic. If he washed Cao Cao's troops at that time, Cao Cao would fight to their death. Cao Cao, despite of being bitterly crushed at the Battle of Chibi, he still had some loyal officers with him, such as Cao Ren, Xiahou Brothers and some other great generals whom would be difficult to deal with.
Another thing that I learn is, when we are on top at something, in our daily social life, we sometimes need to let off other parties who are weaker than us. I have a friend of mine who is doing furniture business here. He once champed out his competitors by his sell-out strategy. It was working perfectly, but he didn't wash out them to the end (I mean being monopolized). I asked him why didn't he take this opportunity that might only lasted once. He said, if he wiped them out, which he might be able to do that, they wouldn't die. Instead they might form some sort of coalision to bash him. That's quite reasonable.

That's some lil things that I could share with you in regards of this incident. Hopefully it's worthy.

[sima old bandit]

2) "When pushing enemies to the edge, the enemy will fight their way to their last blood" - Sun Tzu. I think Zhuge Liang tried to apply one of the great Master Sun's tactic. If he washed Cao Cao's troops at that time, Cao Cao would fight to their death. Cao Cao, despite of being bitterly crushed at the Battle of Chibi, he still had some loyal officers with him, such as Cao Ren, Xiahou Brothers and some other great generals whom would be difficult to deal with.

Imo Cao Cao's forces could not fight back as they were exhausted and bottlenecked. Huarong path is also marshy. They were basically fcked so that tenet from the Art of War did not apply. Cao Cao knew that hence his display of humility.

He said, if he wiped them out, which he might be able to do that, they wouldn't die.

If u wipe something out, i think they would die. If they didn't die, you never wiped them out.

[popcorn]

Maybe it isn't the right time for cao cao to die...because if he die, the north will be in separated and there will be more 'countries' to take over. Zhugeliang wanted 3 kingdoms as he said to Liu Bei.

[akinkhoo]

i support the view that Wu would stand to win too much if Wei fell into disorder.

if Wei is weaken, Liu Bei ability to control jingzhou would be in question. since Wu has no fear of any attack they would no doubt keep pressure on Liu Bei before he has a change to seize control of Shu, grounding the bulk of his army to defending Jing would make the Shu campaign near impossible; Liu Bei survivable clearly depends on convincing Sun Quan that Wu would be in a rockly position without Liu Bei but that would no longer be true without a strong Wei. Liu Bei was the weakest of the 3, there is no advantage in removing the strongest as it would still leave Liu Bei the weakest while Sun Quan becomes the strongest.