28 replies to this topic

[wuTao]

Sorry to say he has almost given up the military history of Korea and concentrated himself upon politology and he is writing a book about poilitical systems of North and South Korea both.

Best regards,

Alexey.

It's a shame Konstantin no longer writes about the ancient Korean military... I found his article on the military system of Koguryo interesting and informative, as well as a pleasure to read.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Again, we should look at real evidence from performance than assumptions from paper; an assumption without analyzation to say the least, specialized units are much easier to train than a combined armed army with disciplined nature. Thats why Europe moved into professional disciplined units than individually trained feudal knights.
The fact is Kogruyo's army lost almost every battle with the Tang on the open field despite fielding superior forces, their only major successes were in sieges.
On paper, the Jin and Song army should also be just as efficient as the Mongols, or even more for their greater variety of units and weapon quality, yet they lost.

[caocao74]

The fact is Kogruyo's army lost almost every battle with the Tang on the open field despite fielding superior forces, their only major successes were in sieges.

In that respect, why do you think that the Sui army performed so poorly against Goguryeo, and then Goguryeo collapsed against the Tang?? (Eulchi Mundeok's skill? Yangdi's lack of skill?)

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

In that respect, why do you think that the Sui army performed so poorly against Goguryeo, and then Goguryeo collapsed against the Tang?? (Eulchi Mundeok's skill? Yangdi's lack of skill?)

Thats not hard to answer, the Sui lost due to logistic problem and siege as well. They were cut up during retreat, not in actual confrontation. More, Sui army is largely conscripts rather than the more professional fubing units of Tang(although some were also conscripts) but the morale and zealous of the Tang troops were alot greater than the Sui's. The Tang had a more "justified cause"

[Gubook Janggoon]

The Tang had a more "justified cause"

What cause was that?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

To protect Silla and bring down the dictator which ursurped the throne from the legitimate king.
The Sui cause was simply attack Koguryo because the king refused to come to court in person and had secret messege with the Tujue. No one is going to fight for Sui with zeal, especially to Yang di's nature.

[Gubook Janggoon]

To protect Silla and bring down the dictator which ursurped the throne from the legitimate king.
The Sui cause was simply attack Koguryo because the king refused to come to court in person and had secret messege with the Tujue. No one is going to fight for Sui with zeal, especially to Yang di's nature.

Ah I see. Would the dictator you talk about be Yeon Gaesomun of Goguryeo?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

yes

[Sephodwyrm]

They have a special name for the premier-like post in Goguryeo...what was that again???

[Gubook Janggoon]

They have a special name for the premier-like post in Goguryeo...what was that again???

Yeon Gaesomun's title was Taedaero at the time.

[stimpypacks]

To protect Silla and bring down the dictator which ursurped the throne from the legitimate king.
The Sui cause was simply attack Koguryo because the king refused to come to court in person and had secret messege with the Tujue. No one is going to fight for Sui with zeal, especially to Yang di's nature.

Tang later fights with Silla though, so I don't think it was purely to protect Silla (maybe at first but not late). In my opinion, I think there was also motivation of getting justice from defeating an old enemy (Goguryeo) who defeated them a long time ago (when they fought as the Sui). Then the Tang fought Silla when they felt that they should gain something from helping Silla, like land. Dying for another country without any gain and for only honor doesn't seem like too good of a motivation to me, even if Silla and Tang were very close.

I don't think bad motivation contributed to poor military performance by the Sui. I think the Sui were motivated by prospects of land. It's not realistic that Sui would just leave, after teaching Goguryeo a lesson for dealing with secret messages with the Tujue.

[stimpypacks]

I'm not sure if the Goguryeo people really trained from childhood to use the spear. Spear was a popular weapon, but the Tang and Sui probably had superior spears and infantry tactics. Previous dynasties, such as the Qin, produced excellent spears and swords (swords were sealed with the stamp of approval if qualities meet standards), and the Tang and Sui, if it followed suit of previous dynasties, would have had excellent array of weaponry and armor.

Goguryeo is not really famed for quality spears. Goguryeo seems more like a bow using (Goguryeo's founding fathers, such as GoJumong was a great archer. the name Jumong was a title that means great archer), horse riding nation (as depictions in Goguryeo murals show. Goguryeo people seem to have been herders instead of farmers, alot like the mongols). Much of Korean combat occured in the form of harrassment and guerrela warfare at night. Nightly raids deprived the Sui soldiers of sleep, making them tired. Not only that, because the Sui's first campaign occurred in the rainy season, they had to walk thru tiring fields of mud. After harrassment, the Goguryeo attackers would feint retreat, to make the Sui soldiers think they were winning, which caused the Sui soldiers to be dispersed, unorganized, and eaiser to pick off individually (Later, the mongols were very successful in using thses tactics). Goguryeo soldiers also harrassed Sui supply lines to add to the problem.

like Borjigin Ayurbarwada's comments, Sui soldiers were largely conscripts and would have had poor discipline, making them easier to lure off from the main army.

Vastly outnumbered and out-weaponed, if Goguryeo fought the Sui in a direct confrontation in a battlefield, Goguryeo would have lost. That is why they fought mostly a Guerrela type warfare, played defensive in a siege, and used cunning instead of strength. The Sui lost alot of their men at the river of Salsu, when Goguryeo drowned the crossing men by opening up a dam as they crossed. The Sui were unfamiliar with the territory of Goguryeo, whereas Goguryeo had home advantage, which they used to the fullest.

Tang had a more professional army, and better weapons than the Sui, and had Silla to cover them if Goguryeo cuts off their supply lines. Goguryeo was probably weakened from previous assaults by the Sui and With Tang attacking from the North, and Silla from the south, they were fighting a two front war, worn down on both sides.

[mariusj]

To protect Silla and bring down the dictator which ursurped the throne from the legitimate king.
The Sui cause was simply attack Koguryo because the king refused to come to court in person and had secret messege with the Tujue. No one is going to fight for Sui with zeal, especially to Yang di's nature.

Hum.
Question on Yang di's nature. I am certain that after his several defeat at Koguryo's hand his name has a few smelly traits to it, but during the war, why would people be suspicious of his nature? I don't think at the moment where he mass millions of man to invade he was one of the worst Emperor, in fact, I thought at that moment Sui was at its prime, and Yang di was thought to be a intelligent and brilliant person by the court.

[sonnori]

When Sui and Tang launched invasion of Goguryo ,
it had been more than 200 years passed since peak time of Goguryo.

Goguryo internally suffered from the short supply of the grains by the lost of most fertile land in South since 550 AD.
During the Yungesomun's reign , royal authority and national unity stayed most unstable in its history
after Yungesomun removed opposites and operated his dictatorship.

There were lots of his antis in government and civilians.

Goguryo itself already experinced its downward internally even before Sui/Tang launched invasion.