180 replies to this topic

[Yun]

Do any of you know Chinese Christians who refuse to have any pictures or carvings of Chinese dragons in their home, because they see the dragon as being an evil symbol? I personally do, but I'm not one of them.

[somechineseperson]

Do any of you know Chinese Christians who refuse to have any pictures or carvings of Chinese dragons in their home, because they see the dragon as being an evil symbol? I personally do, but I'm not one of them.

Yuan Zhiming, if I'm not mistaken, believes that the Chinese dragon is Satanic, who deceived the Chinese people and pulled them away from God. However, most Chinese Christians I think don't really believe in this.

[BlueDragonMagik]

Do any of you know Chinese Christians who refuse to have any pictures or carvings of Chinese dragons in their home, because they see the dragon as being an evil symbol? I personally do, but I'm not one of them.

Yun, ... I do not get it why you see "the dragon as being an evil symbol". ...

[Yun]

Somechineseperson, I am aware of Yuan Zhiming's theory on the Satanic origins of the Chinese dragon. I withhold my judgment on it, except to recognise that this is not as Eurocentric as one may think. The identification of the emperor with the dragon is a phenomenon the origins of which need to be traced more closely before we can simply dismiss Yuan's views as rubbish.

BlueDragonMagik, the reason why some Chinese Christians do not like dragons is because in the book of Revelation in the Bible (which describes a vision of the end of the world), Satan is depicted as a dragon.

[Craig]

But dragon and long (Chinese dragon for no better term to use) are the same thing? Terms are just coined for reference, but the referrenced objects are really the same?

Hi, Goujian,

I think its 'lung' if I'm not mistaken.
We know that the association of the dragon with the east is of great antiquity, even to Fu Hsi and the oldest myths of China. Whereas the dragon is a beneficial symbol in Asia,
it represents the threatening unknown in the west, an attitude that was strengthened by the crusades. It is also a symbol that seems to appear when civilizations meet.
Cortes handed Monctezuma a gold medallion with a picture of St. George slaying the dragon engraved upon it.

[Ryz05]

Hey, check out this article titled "THE DRAGON AND THE PHOENIX IN THE BIBLE"
http://eifiles.cn/dp.htm

It deals with explaining the chinese dragon according with biblical texts. The article says how the staff of Moses was turned into a dragon before the Pharaoh, and that was why Moses was so scared when he saw it that he ran away. You might argue that the staff wasn't a dragon but a snake, and although the staff was turned into a snake, Moses did not run at the site of a snake.

To say the Chinese dragon as evil is unfounded. In the article, the dragon can also be considered as a miracle from God. It also argues that the Chinese might have gotten their depiction of the dragon from the bible. Very interesting, so check it out.

[Yun]

I think its 'lung' if I'm not mistaken.

It is 'lung' in the Wade-Giles system, and 'long' in Hanyu Pinyin. 'Dragon' and 'phoenix' are just convenient Western analogues for the Chinese long and feng. The mythology behind them is quite different.

Cortes handed Monctezuma a gold medallion with a picture of St. George slaying the dragon engraved upon it.

Interesting that no one has brought up the Native American and Mesoamerican legends of the feathered serpent and the horned serpent:

http://altreligion.a...ldefsavanyu.htm

[somechineseperson]

Somechineseperson, I am aware of Yuan Zhiming's theory on the Satanic origins of the Chinese dragon. I withhold my judgment on it, except to recognise that this is not as Eurocentric as one may think. The identification of the emperor with the dragon is a phenomenon the origins of which need to be traced more closely before we can simply dismiss Yuan's views as rubbish.

BlueDragonMagik, the reason why some Chinese Christians do not like dragons is because in the book of Revelation in the Bible (which describes a vision of the end of the world), Satan is depicted as a dragon.

What's interesting is that during the earliest eras of ancient China, the dragon may have not been seen as an auspicious beast, but rather something to be fought against, as is the case in the west. For instance, in the Shan Hai Jing it is written that the legendary Nu Wa "killed black dragons in order to save central China" (杀黑龙以济冀州).

[TMPikachu]

I always figured there were good dragons and bad dragons, some auspicious, some mean.


Aren't some Angels described in the bible as being winged, fire breathing, generally rather dragon-ish?

[somechineseperson]

Sorry. I've made a mistake. The account of Nu Wa is from Huai Nan Zi, not Shan Hai Jing.

[Yun]

Aren't some Angels described in the bible as being winged, fire breathing, generally rather dragon-ish?

The winged creatures surrounding the throne of God in the vision of Ezekiel look neither like dragons nor like the angels we usually visualise. Each had four faces and four wings, and feet like a calf's hooves. The four faces were those of a human, a lion, an ox, and an eagle. They had hands under their wings, and they sparkled like burnished bronze. So strange were these creatures that some modern people speculated that Ezekiel had been visited by extraterrestrial alien life-forms.

As for fire-breathing angels, I don't think there was any such reference in the Bible.

[TMPikachu]

The winged creatures surrounding the throne of God in the vision of Ezekiel look neither like dragons nor like the angels we usually visualise. Each had four faces and four wings, and feet like a calf's hooves. The four faces were those of a human, a lion, an ox, and an eagle. They had hands under their wings, and they sparkled like burnished bronze. So strange were these creatures that some modern people speculated that Ezekiel had been visited by extraterrestrial alien life-forms.

As for fire-breathing angels, I don't think there was any such reference in the Bible.

That's really cool , i've heard of the 'wierd Angel' descriptions before

They really interest me. Do you know of more descriptions of Angels, or any biblical beasts?

Are these all in 'normal (as in easy to find) bibles?

[Yun]

Are these all in 'normal (as in easy to find) bibles?

Yes, they are. Here is another vision of the seraphim standing above the throne of God, from the Book of the Prophet Isaiah:

"Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!" And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke."

(Isaiah saw this vision in his home, so 'the house' refers to his house and likewise for 'the thresholds')

Regarding the four wings of the angels in Ezekiel's vision:

"Each creature had two wings, each of which touched the wing of another, while two covered their bodies."

[MengTzu]

I don't know if this is true, but they say Western fears of dragons (Medieval Times) were a holdover from the invasions by Attila the Hun.  The Huns brought the dragon symbol from Asia and since they were killing people left and right in Europe, they must have thought both the Huns and their symbols to be demonic.

Also, I heard that the Han Chinese, Mongols and Manchus have different toes for their dragons.  One has 3, one has 4 and the other has 5 toes.  How about Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Tibetans and other Asians?

The dragon must've been introduced to the West before the Huns. The Bible talks about dragons.