Took a book out of the library tonight called The Chinese Garden by Maggie Keswick. There was a great picture of one of the dragon walls at Yu Yuan in Shanghai, so I looked around the web and found these:
http://www.math.uchi...age/china04.jpg
http://travel.websho...033937635zUOnWF
2 votes
Dragons Long 龍 龙
Started by
Ghost_of_Han
, Jun 05 2004 07:18 AM
180 replies to this topic
#121
Pattie
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Posted 21 August 2007 - 08:27 PM
Cheers,
_________________________________________________________
I had begun to cherish words excessively for the space they allow around them, for their tangencies with countless other words that I did not utter. Andre Breton
Pattie
_________________________________________________________
I had begun to cherish words excessively for the space they allow around them, for their tangencies with countless other words that I did not utter. Andre Breton
#122
Pattie
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Posted 02 September 2007 - 06:29 PM
I was in the city today and passed the Museum of Natural History which has an exhibit of mythic creatures until January 2008. Their web page has the following introduction to Asian Dragons:
An on-line friend from Texas is coming on the 10th and one of the things on her to do list was this museum, so I'll get to report back (and let you know if the exhibit has a catalog.)
"None of the animals is so wise as the dragon. His blessing power is not a false one. He can be smaller than small, bigger than big, higher than high, and lower than low."
--Chinese scholar Lu Dian (AD 1042-1102)
BETWEEN HEAVEN AND EARTH
The dragons of East Asian legend have sweeping powers. They breathe clouds, move the seasons and control the waters of rivers, lakes and seas. They are linked with yang, the masculine principle of heat, light and action, and opposed to yin, the feminine principle of coolness, darkness and repose. Dragons have been part of East Asian culture for more than 4,000 years. In the religious traditions of Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism, they have been honored as sources of power and bringers of rain.
The Dragon in Many Lands
VIETNAM
According to Vietnamese legend, the rocky islands of Ha Long Bay were spat out by a dragon that guarded the country in ancient times. The name of the bay means "descending dragon."
CHINA
One of China's most subtle delicacies is Longjing (Dragon Well) tea, named for a tea-growing region near Hangzhou, in Zhejiang Province. It is said that centuries ago, people believed that a rain-bringing dragon lived in the area at the bottom of a clear-running spring.
KOREA
A long, low mountain in the shape of a blue dragon lies to the east of the old city center of Seoul, South Korea. A higher one called the white tiger stands to the west. The Korean capital was founded some 600 years ago below these peaks, an auspicious spot according to the principles of spatial planning known in Korea as p'ungsu (feng shui).
JAPAN
A dragon king was once said to live in a pond at Shinzen'en, the imperial garden of Kyoto, Japan. During times of drought, Buddhist monks held ceremonies there to persuade the dragon king to rise and bring rain.
BORNEO
In a folktale from Borneo, a dragon guards a precious jewel on the top of Mount Kinabalu.
So They Say
"The dragon's horns resemble those of a stag, his head that of a camel, his eyes those of a demon, his neck that of a snake, his belly that of a clam, his scales those of a carp, his claws those of an eagle, his soles those of a tiger, his ears those of a cow."
—Chinese scholar Wang Fu (Han dynasty, 206 BC to AD 220)
The dragon that hangs from the ceiling of this room in the exhibition was recently used to perform the dragon dance, a Chinese tradition linked with the Lunar New Year. In Chinese communities all over the world, performers celebrate the season by parading through the streets moving a brightly colored dragon made of bamboo, cloth and paper.
This custom may have ancient roots. The dragon is a symbol of spring, and its image has been used in rain ceremonies dating back at least to the Han dynasty (206 BC to AD 220). The parade dragon on display was made in Hong Kong and has made many public appearances, carried by dancers from the Wan Chi Ming Hung-Gar Institute, a martial arts school in New York City.
ACTION HERO
Asian dragons are centuries old, but they continue to make magic in popular culture. In the Japanese anime series Dragon Ball Z, the dragon Shenlong has the power to grant wishes.
QUICK CHANGE
In East Asian stories, the dragon is a master of transformation. It can shrink, stretch or disappear—or take the form of a fish, a snake or a human being. In this illustration, a Buddhist monk persuades a dragon to shrink small enough to fit in a rice bowl.
HELEMT, MASK AND BODY ARMOR
Worn into battle by Samurai warriors, the dragon was used in Japan as an emblem of masculine power. Japanese families celebrate the same spirit during the Boys' Festival each May 5, decorating their homes with a miniature display of warrior figures and other symbols of combat, including a sword, helmet and suit of armor.
SWORD GUARDS
Samurai warriors used tsuba, or sword guards, to protect their hands during combat. Later sword guards were finely decorated, often with classic Chinese or Japanese symbols or scenes. On one tsuba shown here, a dragon carries Lu Dongbin, one of the legendary figures in Taoist tradition known as the eight immortals.
TEMPLE DRAGONS
Snakelike dragons decorate the rafters of many Korean temples, helping carry prayers up to heaven.
HOUSE RAFTERS
On the island of Borneo in Southeast Asia, the traditional houses of the Kayan and Kenyah people have long verandas, with crouching dragon shapes carved in the rafters above. The artists who created these flowing dragon designs may have borrowed ideas from porcelain jars brought to the island by Chinese traders. In Borneo, the dragon is a goddess of the underworld. She protects the living, guards over the dead and is associated with earth, water, thunder and lightning.
An on-line friend from Texas is coming on the 10th and one of the things on her to do list was this museum, so I'll get to report back (and let you know if the exhibit has a catalog.)
Cheers,
_________________________________________________________
I had begun to cherish words excessively for the space they allow around them, for their tangencies with countless other words that I did not utter. Andre Breton
Pattie
_________________________________________________________
I had begun to cherish words excessively for the space they allow around them, for their tangencies with countless other words that I did not utter. Andre Breton
#123
Pattie
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- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
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Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang 司徒/丞相)
- Gender:Female
- Location:Sprung from cages out on highway 9, Chrome wheeled, fuel injected and steppin out over the line...
- Interests:All things mythic
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Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese Mythology
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Specialisation / Expertise:
Shan Hai Jing
Posted 16 September 2007 - 10:48 AM
So...went to the exhibit (got to touch a narwhal horn!) and aside from the rug rats, thought it was pretty darn good. Asia was well represented (I saw items from Korea, China, Japan and Thailand) and as we stood before the Dragon Robes, we (Barbara and I) agreed that they'd be just the thing if it came in our size.
So if you're in the city with a few free hours, stop by. It was totally worth the price of admission. ^__^
So if you're in the city with a few free hours, stop by. It was totally worth the price of admission. ^__^
Cheers,
_________________________________________________________
I had begun to cherish words excessively for the space they allow around them, for their tangencies with countless other words that I did not utter. Andre Breton
Pattie
_________________________________________________________
I had begun to cherish words excessively for the space they allow around them, for their tangencies with countless other words that I did not utter. Andre Breton
#124
Guest_royba_*
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Posted 18 September 2007 - 08:36 PM
In the first item of this thread the question was asked, "What is the story behind the Chinese Dragon and the Rain? (Something about them invoking the rain or what not)"
This does not seem to have been addressed. Perhaps these notes might be of interest. They are taken from my book, Chinese Dragons, published by Oxford University Press.
The responsibility for marking out the courses of rivers and streams was allocated to the di long, the Dragons of the Earth. There was a fourth duty, namely to guard and watch over the heavenly wealth concealed from mortal eyes. The dragons undertaking this duty were called cang long, the Dragons of Hidden Treasures (no connection with cang dragons). Several cang long designs have been found on tiles and on light relief stone panels with dragons being ridden by immortals
The common people believed that a dragon could move clouds around and bring rain. This belief was reinforced because it was noticed that the appearance of a dragon, of which there were many, was usually accompanied or followed by a great downpour. The Zuo Zhuan (Comments by Zuo) a commentary on the Spring and Autumn Annals of Confucius, records an appearance of dragons in the nineteenth year of the Zhao Gong emperor, 523 BC, and states that in the Zheng area there was a flood. It goes on to say, ‘The dragons were fighting in the deep pools of the Wei river outside the Shi Gate. The people of the country asked the ruler to make sacrifices to the dragons. The emperor refused, saying ‘When I fight, the dragons do not interview me. Why should I be the one to interview the dragons when they fight? If I have nothing to ask of the dragons, they will have nothing to ask of me’. A more pragmatic answer you cannot get. (Note: The Zuo Zhuan was once believed to have been written by Zuo, an ancient historian about whom virtually nothing is known (his last name may have been Qiuming). The Zuo Zhuan is now believed to have been compiled by an anonymous author during the early part of the Warring States period (475-221 BC).)
Round about the time of the birth of Christ, belief in four new kinds of powerful dragons, known as long dragons, materialised. They inhabited the sky but had differing duties. One of these acted as a kind of Praetorian Guard to protect the mansions of the gods. These were called tian long, Heavenly Dragons. Another duty was to produce rain for the benefit of mankind, and those that did this were called shen long, Spiritual Dragons.
In times of drought, the people made images of the dragon in clay for the purposes of making rain and sacrifices were made to it. Writer-scholar Wang Chong, one of the most original and independent Chinese thinkers of the Han period (206 BC-AD 220), tells us that a priest who lived around 140–87 BC made an image of a dragon in clay and sacrificed to it for the purpose of producing rain. The prominent Taoist philosopher and nobleman-scholar, Huainanzi (Master Nan.179 BC?-122 BC), confirms the assertion, for he wrote, ‘The clay dragon regulates rain’. Sacrificing to a clay dragon to invoke rain is also mentioned in the records of the Eastern Han (25–220). In the time of the Tang and Song dynasties there was the custom during a severe drought to throw a slab of stone engraved with special invocations into a river or a lake in the hope that there would be a favourable response of rain from the dragon residing there.
Invocations to the dragon for rain occurred for many centuries. During the Qing dynasty, if there was a severe drought in the Peking area, there was customary to throw a piece of iron into the Pool of the Black Dragon. This was connected with the philosophy developed during the fourth century BC where ‘wood produces fire, fire produces earth, earth produces metal, metal produces water, water produces wood, wood produces fire’, and so on. The iron was intended to frighten the Black Dragon, for, dragons are afraid of iron. And like a spur to a horse, or a jab to an ox, it was intended to serve as encouragement to get to work to make rain.
The belief in the power of dragons to make rain persisted, and images of the Dragon King for the purpose of invoking the delivery of rain to end a drought continued throughout the centuries. These images were sometimes made of bamboo, covered with yellow paper or cloth. In his book, Social Life of the Chinese, Doolittle describes the ceremony in some detail: ‘The head and face are made to imitate the head and face of a dragon; the body and hands are like the body and hands of a man. No feet are attached to it. Being very light it is carried in procession by a man or boy, who places the image over him, the dress coming down to his ankles—in other words, the carrier gets into it. The head of the image is from seven to ten feet from the ground. In its hands, carried in front of the breast, is a kind of wand, in imitation of the utensil which the courtiers of the Ming dynasty were required to hold before them in the presence of the emperor’. He goes on to say that there were also flags of cloth, yellow, green, black, and white, fastened to bamboo poles and on each was a prayer offered for rain. The men or boys who carry these flags cry out loud ‘Let it rain’, and ‘The rain is coming’. A man carrying two buckets of water dips a green branch of bamboo and sprinkles water on the ground calling out while he does so, ‘The rain comes, the rain comes’. The procession would often proceed to the magistrate’s house, and he would emerge to bow and offer incense to the statue of the Dragon King.
But not all the images were so simply made. On 23 August 1913, prayers for rain to end a severe drought, were offered at the Kushan Monastery near Fuzhou. Outside the Monastery’s Hall of Guanyin, a table was placed. On it was a gilded bronze image of the Dragon King about a foot and a half high, bearing the characters, ‘The adorable Great Dragon, Lord Buddha of the Five Lakes and Four Seas, who produces rain’. A lengthy ceremony followed which included the sprinkling of water on the image’s head to imitate rain, and to provide a hint to the dragon-king as what was expected of him.
Rain Processions were held in many parts of the China, usually in the fifth moon, considered to be the birthday of the dragon. Sometimes the processions were held towards the end of the sixth moon, when the rains had broken. In both cases, a long articulated paper effigy of the dragon was paraded through the streets with a dozen men acting as living vertebrae under a cloth painted to look like scales. Gongs were clanged, firecrackers were noisily exploded, and bonfires of paper money were lit. The beast would be illuminated by candle-lanterns, and the burned-out ends that dropped were eagerly sought by women believing them to be talismans for fertility. There were variations, too. This ceremony is perpetuated today as the Lion Dance, for the amusement of tourists.
The association between dragons and water has carried over into the present day. As most readers of this Forum knows, even in the second millennium, a water tap or faucet in Chinese is a ‘dragons head’, a water pump is called a ‘water-drawing dragon’s head’, and fire hoses are called ‘water dragons’
This does not seem to have been addressed. Perhaps these notes might be of interest. They are taken from my book, Chinese Dragons, published by Oxford University Press.
The responsibility for marking out the courses of rivers and streams was allocated to the di long, the Dragons of the Earth. There was a fourth duty, namely to guard and watch over the heavenly wealth concealed from mortal eyes. The dragons undertaking this duty were called cang long, the Dragons of Hidden Treasures (no connection with cang dragons). Several cang long designs have been found on tiles and on light relief stone panels with dragons being ridden by immortals
The common people believed that a dragon could move clouds around and bring rain. This belief was reinforced because it was noticed that the appearance of a dragon, of which there were many, was usually accompanied or followed by a great downpour. The Zuo Zhuan (Comments by Zuo) a commentary on the Spring and Autumn Annals of Confucius, records an appearance of dragons in the nineteenth year of the Zhao Gong emperor, 523 BC, and states that in the Zheng area there was a flood. It goes on to say, ‘The dragons were fighting in the deep pools of the Wei river outside the Shi Gate. The people of the country asked the ruler to make sacrifices to the dragons. The emperor refused, saying ‘When I fight, the dragons do not interview me. Why should I be the one to interview the dragons when they fight? If I have nothing to ask of the dragons, they will have nothing to ask of me’. A more pragmatic answer you cannot get. (Note: The Zuo Zhuan was once believed to have been written by Zuo, an ancient historian about whom virtually nothing is known (his last name may have been Qiuming). The Zuo Zhuan is now believed to have been compiled by an anonymous author during the early part of the Warring States period (475-221 BC).)
Round about the time of the birth of Christ, belief in four new kinds of powerful dragons, known as long dragons, materialised. They inhabited the sky but had differing duties. One of these acted as a kind of Praetorian Guard to protect the mansions of the gods. These were called tian long, Heavenly Dragons. Another duty was to produce rain for the benefit of mankind, and those that did this were called shen long, Spiritual Dragons.
In times of drought, the people made images of the dragon in clay for the purposes of making rain and sacrifices were made to it. Writer-scholar Wang Chong, one of the most original and independent Chinese thinkers of the Han period (206 BC-AD 220), tells us that a priest who lived around 140–87 BC made an image of a dragon in clay and sacrificed to it for the purpose of producing rain. The prominent Taoist philosopher and nobleman-scholar, Huainanzi (Master Nan.179 BC?-122 BC), confirms the assertion, for he wrote, ‘The clay dragon regulates rain’. Sacrificing to a clay dragon to invoke rain is also mentioned in the records of the Eastern Han (25–220). In the time of the Tang and Song dynasties there was the custom during a severe drought to throw a slab of stone engraved with special invocations into a river or a lake in the hope that there would be a favourable response of rain from the dragon residing there.
Invocations to the dragon for rain occurred for many centuries. During the Qing dynasty, if there was a severe drought in the Peking area, there was customary to throw a piece of iron into the Pool of the Black Dragon. This was connected with the philosophy developed during the fourth century BC where ‘wood produces fire, fire produces earth, earth produces metal, metal produces water, water produces wood, wood produces fire’, and so on. The iron was intended to frighten the Black Dragon, for, dragons are afraid of iron. And like a spur to a horse, or a jab to an ox, it was intended to serve as encouragement to get to work to make rain.
The belief in the power of dragons to make rain persisted, and images of the Dragon King for the purpose of invoking the delivery of rain to end a drought continued throughout the centuries. These images were sometimes made of bamboo, covered with yellow paper or cloth. In his book, Social Life of the Chinese, Doolittle describes the ceremony in some detail: ‘The head and face are made to imitate the head and face of a dragon; the body and hands are like the body and hands of a man. No feet are attached to it. Being very light it is carried in procession by a man or boy, who places the image over him, the dress coming down to his ankles—in other words, the carrier gets into it. The head of the image is from seven to ten feet from the ground. In its hands, carried in front of the breast, is a kind of wand, in imitation of the utensil which the courtiers of the Ming dynasty were required to hold before them in the presence of the emperor’. He goes on to say that there were also flags of cloth, yellow, green, black, and white, fastened to bamboo poles and on each was a prayer offered for rain. The men or boys who carry these flags cry out loud ‘Let it rain’, and ‘The rain is coming’. A man carrying two buckets of water dips a green branch of bamboo and sprinkles water on the ground calling out while he does so, ‘The rain comes, the rain comes’. The procession would often proceed to the magistrate’s house, and he would emerge to bow and offer incense to the statue of the Dragon King.
But not all the images were so simply made. On 23 August 1913, prayers for rain to end a severe drought, were offered at the Kushan Monastery near Fuzhou. Outside the Monastery’s Hall of Guanyin, a table was placed. On it was a gilded bronze image of the Dragon King about a foot and a half high, bearing the characters, ‘The adorable Great Dragon, Lord Buddha of the Five Lakes and Four Seas, who produces rain’. A lengthy ceremony followed which included the sprinkling of water on the image’s head to imitate rain, and to provide a hint to the dragon-king as what was expected of him.
Rain Processions were held in many parts of the China, usually in the fifth moon, considered to be the birthday of the dragon. Sometimes the processions were held towards the end of the sixth moon, when the rains had broken. In both cases, a long articulated paper effigy of the dragon was paraded through the streets with a dozen men acting as living vertebrae under a cloth painted to look like scales. Gongs were clanged, firecrackers were noisily exploded, and bonfires of paper money were lit. The beast would be illuminated by candle-lanterns, and the burned-out ends that dropped were eagerly sought by women believing them to be talismans for fertility. There were variations, too. This ceremony is perpetuated today as the Lion Dance, for the amusement of tourists.
The association between dragons and water has carried over into the present day. As most readers of this Forum knows, even in the second millennium, a water tap or faucet in Chinese is a ‘dragons head’, a water pump is called a ‘water-drawing dragon’s head’, and fire hoses are called ‘water dragons’
#125
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Posted 18 September 2007 - 09:36 PM
There has been some discussion in this thread on the “nine” sons of the dragon. However, it should be remembered that the Chinese dragon is mythical, and any “sons” are also mythical. It is the practice to say there are nine sons. But nine is an auspicious number, and since there are several sources that list the nine sons, and the sources do not agree, there are stories about more than nine so-called sons. So it in nonsense to say there are nine sons, especially as there is more than one dragon.
The so-called sons do not perfectly resemble their “father,” though they all possess some great talent. There are several ancient publications listing the characteristics of these sons, but unhappily, the lists differ. There are also several more recent lists, and these differ again, and it is clear that Chinese historians have not come to any agreement as to who the sons are.
C.A.S. Williams, in his book Outline of Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives, says that there are said to be nine distinct offshoots of the dragon. He quotes a list given by Chen Ren Xi (1579-1634) in his book Qian Ju Lei Shu, namely Chiwen (also called the Chi Wei), Pulao, Bi An, Ya Zi, Suanni, Qui Niu, Bi Xi (also called the Ba Xia), and the Chao Feng.. Williams also mentions that there is a slightly different list of the nine sons given in Sheng An Wen Chi, and although this includes the Jiao Tu and the Tao Tie, it lists a Cha Yu. The inclusion of this last beast, with the suggestion that it is a son of the dragon, is intriguing and will be discussed later.
A chapter in a book entitled Dragon by Wang Congren, (Hai Feng Publishing Co. Ltd, Hong Kong, 1996) which is largely a compilation of legends about the dragon, gives the same list attributed to Chen Ren Xi by Williams, but says that this list came from a man called Liu Ji. Apparently, the Hongzhi emperor asked his Grand Academician Li Dong Yang (1447-1516) who the nine sons were? Li was unable to answer, but Liu Ji, an official with the Ministry of Personnel, came to Li’s rescue, and gave his opinion.
Dr. Florence Ayerscough, a well-known authority, mentions in her Article, Notes on the Symbolism of the Purple Forbidden City mentions Li Dong Yang’s list and says that he presented to the Hongzhi Emperor, and she makes no mention of Liu Ji. However, the list she attributes to Li has the last four as the Jiao Tu, Bei Xi, Tao Tie, and Ba Xia. It is the list generally quoted in discussions on the nine “Sons” of the Dragon in tourist publications.
Nine Sons List 1
狴犴（bì’àn）
赑屃（bìxì)
嘲风（cháofēng）
螭吻/鸱尾（chīwìn/chīwìi）
负屃（fùxì）
蒲牢（púláo）
囚牛（qiúniú）
狻猊（suānní）
睚眦（yázì）
Nine Sons List 2
蚣蝮（应为)（bāxià）
狴犴（bì’àn）
赑屃（bìxì）
螭吻/鸱尾（chīwìn/chīwìi）
椒图（jiāotú）
蒲牢（púláo）
狻猊（suānní）
饕餮（tāotiè）
睚眦（yázì）
So which list is correct, and who drew them up, Li, Liu or Chen? Did the dragon have more than nine sons?
The Beijing Tourist Magazine happily admits that even “the Chinese themselves seem unable to achieve agreement as to what the Dragon’s sons are called.” Yes, indeed! The assertion that there are nine sons (and only nine sons) must be taken with a pinch of Chinese spice powder, for I have collected a total of nineteen, all stated by one expert or another that they are “sons” of the dragon. I suspect that like Kipling’s tribal lays there are nine and sixty ways of listing the sons of the dragon — “And every single one of them is right!” The reality, however, is that the assumption that there are only nine sons is simply because of the use of this auspicious number.
Some of the dragon sons are somewhat mysterious. The Qiao Tu, is said to like to close things, and this is why it is carved or fixed on doors as decoration or for door handles. There are many of these to be found looking like door handles on the many gates in the Forbidden City but these are only gilt ornamental masks without specific function, and it is difficult to see why they should be considered as dragons.
The Tao Tie, has a gluttonous nature, so it is said, and therefore this is why its face is put on food vessels as a warning to humans to avoid this sin. These are to be seen on the ancient bronze food vessels on display in the Palace Museum, Beijing. These vessels are not in any way connected with the Forbidden City, however, and belong to a very much earlier age. Similar bronzes can be seen in many other museums throughout China. The Tao Tie design was common on ritual bronze vessels and implements of the Shang (18th-12th century BC) and early Chou (1111-c. 900 BC) dynasties. It characteristically consists of a zoomorphic mask in full face that simultaneously may be divided through the nose ridge of the centre to form profile views of two one-legged beasts (gui dragons) confronting each other. A ground pattern of squared spirals, the “thunder pattern” (lei wen), often serves as a design filler between and around the larger features of the design. The mask typically features large, protuberant eyes with stylised depictions of eyebrows, horns, nose crest, ears. It often has two peripheral legs; and a line of a curled upper lip with exposed fangs. However there is no lower jaw, and it is this absence which gives the effect of a wide-open mouth with an infinite capacity for swallowing. Song antiquarians explained that the design represented a warning against overindulgence, though whether this was ever a vice in early China is speculation. Since it suggests an ever-devouring “glutton,” it was probably this last feature that later (3rd century BC) inspired the name Tao Tie for the ancient monster motif. The function of this motif has been variously interpreted. It is possibly totemic, or protective, or even an abstracted, symbolic representation of the forces of nature. After the early Chou period, the Tao Tie mask motif was supplanted by a monster that was similar but depicted more literally and with diminished power.
Just like the Qiao Tu, it is not easy to fathom why a conviction developed that the Tao Tie design is a son of the dragon. It has never been other than a design on a food vessel, and at the time of its depiction it is unlikely that it was considered as an idealized portrait of a deity or dragon.
Of course, the Chinese happily accept the absence of a body on a Tao Tie, and have a myth that explains this. It seems that the Tao Tie was once wicked enough to eat human beings — its gluttony knew no bounds. As a punishment the gods decided to remove its body, and leave it without any means of digesting food, and sentenced it to be displayed on food vessels as a warning to others not to over indulge. But this story seems to be based on the story of the Hindu Kirtimukha, and it implies that the Shang people had religion.
The Indian Kirtimukha is represented as a face personifying ferocity with protruding eye-balls, stout horns, wide opened mouth suggesting a roar and canine teeth protruding out of it. The legend of the creation of the Kirtimukha is as follows: Siva, it seems, was just about to marry the beautiful Parvati, when a messenger came to him from the land of the demons. This messenger was Rahu, the demon who every now and then swallows the sun and so causes eclipses. The message he brought was that the king of the demons considered Siva unworthy to wed Parvati, and that he himself would take her instead. Siva became so angry that a monster sprang out from between his eyes and fell upon the unfortunate Rahu. This frightened Rahu so much that he threw himself at Siva's feet and begged for mercy. Siva, mollified, agreed to let him go. But the moster creature who was born of his wrath now turned upon Siva, and complained. "You created me to devour the demon," he protested. " What am I to do? I am hungry"
"Well," said Siva, “You will just have to eat yourself." And this the monster did. He began with his legs and then his arms, gradually eating himself up until nothing remained of him but the face. The blind unchallenging obedience to a casual remark so amused Siva that he appointed the the monster as guardian of his door, to be worshiped and fed with sacrificial meats by all who entered there, and named him Kirtimukha.
In my opinion, the Kirtimukha is the fore-runner of the Chinese Qiao Tu, or perhaps the Bi An , both said to be mounted on doors. But in China the monster face was not put on Hindu Temple doors. It ended up on prison doors as a fearsome frightening beast. There is a monster mask above the entrance door Ming Dynasty Su San Prison in Hongdong, Shanxi. The prison, named after the heroine in the Peking Opera Yutangchun, was damaged during the "cultural revolution" (1966-76). In 1984 it was rebuilt and is now a tourist attraction. But no one seems to know the name of this monster mask.
The so-called sons do not perfectly resemble their “father,” though they all possess some great talent. There are several ancient publications listing the characteristics of these sons, but unhappily, the lists differ. There are also several more recent lists, and these differ again, and it is clear that Chinese historians have not come to any agreement as to who the sons are.
C.A.S. Williams, in his book Outline of Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives, says that there are said to be nine distinct offshoots of the dragon. He quotes a list given by Chen Ren Xi (1579-1634) in his book Qian Ju Lei Shu, namely Chiwen (also called the Chi Wei), Pulao, Bi An, Ya Zi, Suanni, Qui Niu, Bi Xi (also called the Ba Xia), and the Chao Feng.. Williams also mentions that there is a slightly different list of the nine sons given in Sheng An Wen Chi, and although this includes the Jiao Tu and the Tao Tie, it lists a Cha Yu. The inclusion of this last beast, with the suggestion that it is a son of the dragon, is intriguing and will be discussed later.
A chapter in a book entitled Dragon by Wang Congren, (Hai Feng Publishing Co. Ltd, Hong Kong, 1996) which is largely a compilation of legends about the dragon, gives the same list attributed to Chen Ren Xi by Williams, but says that this list came from a man called Liu Ji. Apparently, the Hongzhi emperor asked his Grand Academician Li Dong Yang (1447-1516) who the nine sons were? Li was unable to answer, but Liu Ji, an official with the Ministry of Personnel, came to Li’s rescue, and gave his opinion.
Dr. Florence Ayerscough, a well-known authority, mentions in her Article, Notes on the Symbolism of the Purple Forbidden City mentions Li Dong Yang’s list and says that he presented to the Hongzhi Emperor, and she makes no mention of Liu Ji. However, the list she attributes to Li has the last four as the Jiao Tu, Bei Xi, Tao Tie, and Ba Xia. It is the list generally quoted in discussions on the nine “Sons” of the Dragon in tourist publications.
Nine Sons List 1
狴犴（bì’àn）
赑屃（bìxì)
嘲风（cháofēng）
螭吻/鸱尾（chīwìn/chīwìi）
负屃（fùxì）
蒲牢（púláo）
囚牛（qiúniú）
狻猊（suānní）
睚眦（yázì）
Nine Sons List 2
蚣蝮（应为)（bāxià）
狴犴（bì’àn）
赑屃（bìxì）
螭吻/鸱尾（chīwìn/chīwìi）
椒图（jiāotú）
蒲牢（púláo）
狻猊（suānní）
饕餮（tāotiè）
睚眦（yázì）
So which list is correct, and who drew them up, Li, Liu or Chen? Did the dragon have more than nine sons?
The Beijing Tourist Magazine happily admits that even “the Chinese themselves seem unable to achieve agreement as to what the Dragon’s sons are called.” Yes, indeed! The assertion that there are nine sons (and only nine sons) must be taken with a pinch of Chinese spice powder, for I have collected a total of nineteen, all stated by one expert or another that they are “sons” of the dragon. I suspect that like Kipling’s tribal lays there are nine and sixty ways of listing the sons of the dragon — “And every single one of them is right!” The reality, however, is that the assumption that there are only nine sons is simply because of the use of this auspicious number.
Some of the dragon sons are somewhat mysterious. The Qiao Tu, is said to like to close things, and this is why it is carved or fixed on doors as decoration or for door handles. There are many of these to be found looking like door handles on the many gates in the Forbidden City but these are only gilt ornamental masks without specific function, and it is difficult to see why they should be considered as dragons.
The Tao Tie, has a gluttonous nature, so it is said, and therefore this is why its face is put on food vessels as a warning to humans to avoid this sin. These are to be seen on the ancient bronze food vessels on display in the Palace Museum, Beijing. These vessels are not in any way connected with the Forbidden City, however, and belong to a very much earlier age. Similar bronzes can be seen in many other museums throughout China. The Tao Tie design was common on ritual bronze vessels and implements of the Shang (18th-12th century BC) and early Chou (1111-c. 900 BC) dynasties. It characteristically consists of a zoomorphic mask in full face that simultaneously may be divided through the nose ridge of the centre to form profile views of two one-legged beasts (gui dragons) confronting each other. A ground pattern of squared spirals, the “thunder pattern” (lei wen), often serves as a design filler between and around the larger features of the design. The mask typically features large, protuberant eyes with stylised depictions of eyebrows, horns, nose crest, ears. It often has two peripheral legs; and a line of a curled upper lip with exposed fangs. However there is no lower jaw, and it is this absence which gives the effect of a wide-open mouth with an infinite capacity for swallowing. Song antiquarians explained that the design represented a warning against overindulgence, though whether this was ever a vice in early China is speculation. Since it suggests an ever-devouring “glutton,” it was probably this last feature that later (3rd century BC) inspired the name Tao Tie for the ancient monster motif. The function of this motif has been variously interpreted. It is possibly totemic, or protective, or even an abstracted, symbolic representation of the forces of nature. After the early Chou period, the Tao Tie mask motif was supplanted by a monster that was similar but depicted more literally and with diminished power.
Just like the Qiao Tu, it is not easy to fathom why a conviction developed that the Tao Tie design is a son of the dragon. It has never been other than a design on a food vessel, and at the time of its depiction it is unlikely that it was considered as an idealized portrait of a deity or dragon.
Of course, the Chinese happily accept the absence of a body on a Tao Tie, and have a myth that explains this. It seems that the Tao Tie was once wicked enough to eat human beings — its gluttony knew no bounds. As a punishment the gods decided to remove its body, and leave it without any means of digesting food, and sentenced it to be displayed on food vessels as a warning to others not to over indulge. But this story seems to be based on the story of the Hindu Kirtimukha, and it implies that the Shang people had religion.
The Indian Kirtimukha is represented as a face personifying ferocity with protruding eye-balls, stout horns, wide opened mouth suggesting a roar and canine teeth protruding out of it. The legend of the creation of the Kirtimukha is as follows: Siva, it seems, was just about to marry the beautiful Parvati, when a messenger came to him from the land of the demons. This messenger was Rahu, the demon who every now and then swallows the sun and so causes eclipses. The message he brought was that the king of the demons considered Siva unworthy to wed Parvati, and that he himself would take her instead. Siva became so angry that a monster sprang out from between his eyes and fell upon the unfortunate Rahu. This frightened Rahu so much that he threw himself at Siva's feet and begged for mercy. Siva, mollified, agreed to let him go. But the moster creature who was born of his wrath now turned upon Siva, and complained. "You created me to devour the demon," he protested. " What am I to do? I am hungry"
"Well," said Siva, “You will just have to eat yourself." And this the monster did. He began with his legs and then his arms, gradually eating himself up until nothing remained of him but the face. The blind unchallenging obedience to a casual remark so amused Siva that he appointed the the monster as guardian of his door, to be worshiped and fed with sacrificial meats by all who entered there, and named him Kirtimukha.
In my opinion, the Kirtimukha is the fore-runner of the Chinese Qiao Tu, or perhaps the Bi An , both said to be mounted on doors. But in China the monster face was not put on Hindu Temple doors. It ended up on prison doors as a fearsome frightening beast. There is a monster mask above the entrance door Ming Dynasty Su San Prison in Hongdong, Shanxi. The prison, named after the heroine in the Peking Opera Yutangchun, was damaged during the "cultural revolution" (1966-76). In 1984 it was rebuilt and is now a tourist attraction. But no one seems to know the name of this monster mask.
#126
Guest_royba_*
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Posted 18 September 2007 - 09:40 PM
The Nine Sons of the Dragon
There has been some discussion in this thread on the “nine” sons of the dragon. However, it should be remembered that the Chinese dragon is mythical, and any “sons” are also mythical. It is the practice to say there are nine sons. But nine is an auspicious number, and since there are several sources that list the nine sons, and the sources do not agree, there are stories about more than nine so-called sons. So it in nonsense to say there are nine sons, especially as there is more than one dragon.
The so-called sons do not perfectly resemble their “father,” though they all possess some great talent. There are several ancient publications listing the characteristics of these sons, but unhappily, the lists differ. There are also several more recent lists, and these differ again, and it is clear that Chinese historians have not come to any agreement as to who the sons are.
C.A.S. Williams, in his book Outline of Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives, says that there are said to be nine distinct offshoots of the dragon. He quotes a list given by Chen Ren Xi (1579-1634) in his book Qian Ju Lei Shu, namely Chiwen (also called the Chi Wei), Pulao, Bi An, Ya Zi, Suanni, Qui Niu, Bi Xi (also called the Ba Xia), and the Chao Feng.. Williams also mentions that there is a slightly different list of the nine sons given in Sheng An Wen Chi, and although this includes the Jiao Tu and the Tao Tie, it lists a Cha Yu. The inclusion of this last beast, with the suggestion that it is a son of the dragon, is intriguing and will be discussed later.
A chapter in a book entitled Dragon by Wang Congren, (Hai Feng Publishing Co. Ltd, Hong Kong, 1996) which is largely a compilation of legends about the dragon, gives the same list attributed to Chen Ren Xi by Williams, but says that this list came from a man called Liu Ji. Apparently, the Hongzhi emperor asked his Grand Academician Li Dong Yang (1447-1516) who the nine sons were? Li was unable to answer, but Liu Ji, an official with the Ministry of Personnel, came to Li’s rescue, and gave his opinion.
Dr. Florence Ayerscough, a well-known authority, mentions in her Article, Notes on the Symbolism of the Purple Forbidden City mentions Li Dong Yang’s list and says that he presented to the Hongzhi Emperor, and she makes no mention of Liu Ji. However, the list she attributes to Li has the last four as the Jiao Tu, Bei Xi, Tao Tie, and Ba Xia. It is the list generally quoted in discussions on the nine “Sons” of the Dragon in tourist publications.
Nine Sons List 1
狴犴（bì’àn）
赑屃（bìxì)
嘲风（cháofēng）
螭吻/鸱尾（chīwìn/chīwìi）
负屃（fùxì）
蒲牢（púláo）
囚牛（qiúniú）
狻猊（suānní）
睚眦（yázì）
Nine Sons List 2
蚣蝮（应为)（bāxià）
狴犴（bì’àn）
赑屃（bìxì）
螭吻/鸱尾（chīwìn/chīwìi）
椒图（jiāotú）
蒲牢（púláo）
狻猊（suānní）
饕餮（tāotiè）
睚眦（yázì）
So which list is correct, and who drew them up, Li, Liu or Chen? Did the dragon have more than nine sons?
The Beijing Tourist Magazine happily admits that even “the Chinese themselves seem unable to achieve agreement as to what the Dragon’s sons are called.” Yes, indeed! The assertion that there are nine sons (and only nine sons) must be taken with a pinch of Chinese spice powder, for I have collected a total of nineteen, all stated by one expert or another that they are “sons” of the dragon. I suspect that like Kipling’s tribal lays there are nine and sixty ways of listing the sons of the dragon — “And every single one of them is right!” The reality, however, is that the assumption that there are only nine sons is simply because of the use of this auspicious number.
Some of the dragon sons are somewhat mysterious. The Qiao Tu, is said to like to close things, and this is why it is carved or fixed on doors as decoration or for door handles. There are many of these to be found looking like door handles on the many gates in the Forbidden City but these are only gilt ornamental masks without specific function, and it is difficult to see why they should be considered as dragons.
The Tao Tie, has a gluttonous nature, so it is said, and therefore this is why its face is put on food vessels as a warning to humans to avoid this sin. These are to be seen on the ancient bronze food vessels on display in the Palace Museum, Beijing. These vessels are not in any way connected with the Forbidden City, however, and belong to a very much earlier age. Similar bronzes can be seen in many other museums throughout China. The Tao Tie design was common on ritual bronze vessels and implements of the Shang (18th-12th century BC) and early Chou (1111-c. 900 BC) dynasties. It characteristically consists of a zoomorphic mask in full face that simultaneously may be divided through the nose ridge of the centre to form profile views of two one-legged beasts (gui dragons) confronting each other. A ground pattern of squared spirals, the “thunder pattern” (lei wen), often serves as a design filler between and around the larger features of the design. The mask typically features large, protuberant eyes with stylised depictions of eyebrows, horns, nose crest, ears. It often has two peripheral legs; and a line of a curled upper lip with exposed fangs. However there is no lower jaw, and it is this absence which gives the effect of a wide-open mouth with an infinite capacity for swallowing. Song antiquarians explained that the design represented a warning against overindulgence, though whether this was ever a vice in early China is speculation. Since it suggests an ever-devouring “glutton,” it was probably this last feature that later (3rd century BC) inspired the name Tao Tie for the ancient monster motif. The function of this motif has been variously interpreted. It is possibly totemic, or protective, or even an abstracted, symbolic representation of the forces of nature. After the early Chou period, the Tao Tie mask motif was supplanted by a monster that was similar but depicted more literally and with diminished power.
Just like the Qiao Tu, it is not easy to fathom why a conviction developed that the Tao Tie design is a son of the dragon. It has never been other than a design on a food vessel, and at the time of its depiction it is unlikely that it was considered as an idealized portrait of a deity or dragon.
Of course, the Chinese happily accept the absence of a body on a Tao Tie, and have a myth that explains this. It seems that the Tao Tie was once wicked enough to eat human beings — its gluttony knew no bounds. As a punishment the gods decided to remove its body, and leave it without any means of digesting food, and sentenced it to be displayed on food vessels as a warning to others not to over indulge. But this story seems to be based on the story of the Hindu Kirtimukha, and it implies that the Shang people had religion.
The Indian Kirtimukha is represented as a face personifying ferocity with protruding eye-balls, stout horns, wide opened mouth suggesting a roar and canine teeth protruding out of it. The legend of the creation of the Kirtimukha is as follows: Siva, it seems, was just about to marry the beautiful Parvati, when a messenger came to him from the land of the demons. This messenger was Rahu, the demon who every now and then swallows the sun and so causes eclipses. The message he brought was that the king of the demons considered Siva unworthy to wed Parvati, and that he himself would take her instead. Siva became so angry that a monster sprang out from between his eyes and fell upon the unfortunate Rahu. This frightened Rahu so much that he threw himself at Siva's feet and begged for mercy. Siva, mollified, agreed to let him go. But the moster creature who was born of his wrath now turned upon Siva, and complained. "You created me to devour the demon," he protested. " What am I to do? I am hungry"
"Well," said Siva, “You will just have to eat yourself." And this the monster did. He began with his legs and then his arms, gradually eating himself up until nothing remained of him but the face. The blind unchallenging obedience to a casual remark so amused Siva that he appointed the the monster as guardian of his door, to be worshiped and fed with sacrificial meats by all who entered there, and named him Kirtimukha.
In my opinion, the Kirtimukha is the fore-runner of the Chinese Qiao Tu, or perhaps the Bi An , both said to be mounted on doors. But in China the monster face was not put on Hindu Temple doors. It ended up on prison doors as a fearsome frightening beast. There is a monster mask above the entrance door Ming Dynasty Su San Prison in Hongdong, Shanxi. The prison, named after the heroine in the Peking Opera Yutangchun, was damaged during the "cultural revolution" (1966-76). In 1984 it was rebuilt and is now a tourist attraction. But no one seems to know the name of this monster mask.
[/quote]
There has been some discussion in this thread on the “nine” sons of the dragon. However, it should be remembered that the Chinese dragon is mythical, and any “sons” are also mythical. It is the practice to say there are nine sons. But nine is an auspicious number, and since there are several sources that list the nine sons, and the sources do not agree, there are stories about more than nine so-called sons. So it in nonsense to say there are nine sons, especially as there is more than one dragon.
The so-called sons do not perfectly resemble their “father,” though they all possess some great talent. There are several ancient publications listing the characteristics of these sons, but unhappily, the lists differ. There are also several more recent lists, and these differ again, and it is clear that Chinese historians have not come to any agreement as to who the sons are.
C.A.S. Williams, in his book Outline of Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives, says that there are said to be nine distinct offshoots of the dragon. He quotes a list given by Chen Ren Xi (1579-1634) in his book Qian Ju Lei Shu, namely Chiwen (also called the Chi Wei), Pulao, Bi An, Ya Zi, Suanni, Qui Niu, Bi Xi (also called the Ba Xia), and the Chao Feng.. Williams also mentions that there is a slightly different list of the nine sons given in Sheng An Wen Chi, and although this includes the Jiao Tu and the Tao Tie, it lists a Cha Yu. The inclusion of this last beast, with the suggestion that it is a son of the dragon, is intriguing and will be discussed later.
A chapter in a book entitled Dragon by Wang Congren, (Hai Feng Publishing Co. Ltd, Hong Kong, 1996) which is largely a compilation of legends about the dragon, gives the same list attributed to Chen Ren Xi by Williams, but says that this list came from a man called Liu Ji. Apparently, the Hongzhi emperor asked his Grand Academician Li Dong Yang (1447-1516) who the nine sons were? Li was unable to answer, but Liu Ji, an official with the Ministry of Personnel, came to Li’s rescue, and gave his opinion.
Dr. Florence Ayerscough, a well-known authority, mentions in her Article, Notes on the Symbolism of the Purple Forbidden City mentions Li Dong Yang’s list and says that he presented to the Hongzhi Emperor, and she makes no mention of Liu Ji. However, the list she attributes to Li has the last four as the Jiao Tu, Bei Xi, Tao Tie, and Ba Xia. It is the list generally quoted in discussions on the nine “Sons” of the Dragon in tourist publications.
Nine Sons List 1
狴犴（bì’àn）
赑屃（bìxì)
嘲风（cháofēng）
螭吻/鸱尾（chīwìn/chīwìi）
负屃（fùxì）
蒲牢（púláo）
囚牛（qiúniú）
狻猊（suānní）
睚眦（yázì）
Nine Sons List 2
蚣蝮（应为)（bāxià）
狴犴（bì’àn）
赑屃（bìxì）
螭吻/鸱尾（chīwìn/chīwìi）
椒图（jiāotú）
蒲牢（púláo）
狻猊（suānní）
饕餮（tāotiè）
睚眦（yázì）
So which list is correct, and who drew them up, Li, Liu or Chen? Did the dragon have more than nine sons?
The Beijing Tourist Magazine happily admits that even “the Chinese themselves seem unable to achieve agreement as to what the Dragon’s sons are called.” Yes, indeed! The assertion that there are nine sons (and only nine sons) must be taken with a pinch of Chinese spice powder, for I have collected a total of nineteen, all stated by one expert or another that they are “sons” of the dragon. I suspect that like Kipling’s tribal lays there are nine and sixty ways of listing the sons of the dragon — “And every single one of them is right!” The reality, however, is that the assumption that there are only nine sons is simply because of the use of this auspicious number.
Some of the dragon sons are somewhat mysterious. The Qiao Tu, is said to like to close things, and this is why it is carved or fixed on doors as decoration or for door handles. There are many of these to be found looking like door handles on the many gates in the Forbidden City but these are only gilt ornamental masks without specific function, and it is difficult to see why they should be considered as dragons.
The Tao Tie, has a gluttonous nature, so it is said, and therefore this is why its face is put on food vessels as a warning to humans to avoid this sin. These are to be seen on the ancient bronze food vessels on display in the Palace Museum, Beijing. These vessels are not in any way connected with the Forbidden City, however, and belong to a very much earlier age. Similar bronzes can be seen in many other museums throughout China. The Tao Tie design was common on ritual bronze vessels and implements of the Shang (18th-12th century BC) and early Chou (1111-c. 900 BC) dynasties. It characteristically consists of a zoomorphic mask in full face that simultaneously may be divided through the nose ridge of the centre to form profile views of two one-legged beasts (gui dragons) confronting each other. A ground pattern of squared spirals, the “thunder pattern” (lei wen), often serves as a design filler between and around the larger features of the design. The mask typically features large, protuberant eyes with stylised depictions of eyebrows, horns, nose crest, ears. It often has two peripheral legs; and a line of a curled upper lip with exposed fangs. However there is no lower jaw, and it is this absence which gives the effect of a wide-open mouth with an infinite capacity for swallowing. Song antiquarians explained that the design represented a warning against overindulgence, though whether this was ever a vice in early China is speculation. Since it suggests an ever-devouring “glutton,” it was probably this last feature that later (3rd century BC) inspired the name Tao Tie for the ancient monster motif. The function of this motif has been variously interpreted. It is possibly totemic, or protective, or even an abstracted, symbolic representation of the forces of nature. After the early Chou period, the Tao Tie mask motif was supplanted by a monster that was similar but depicted more literally and with diminished power.
Just like the Qiao Tu, it is not easy to fathom why a conviction developed that the Tao Tie design is a son of the dragon. It has never been other than a design on a food vessel, and at the time of its depiction it is unlikely that it was considered as an idealized portrait of a deity or dragon.
Of course, the Chinese happily accept the absence of a body on a Tao Tie, and have a myth that explains this. It seems that the Tao Tie was once wicked enough to eat human beings — its gluttony knew no bounds. As a punishment the gods decided to remove its body, and leave it without any means of digesting food, and sentenced it to be displayed on food vessels as a warning to others not to over indulge. But this story seems to be based on the story of the Hindu Kirtimukha, and it implies that the Shang people had religion.
The Indian Kirtimukha is represented as a face personifying ferocity with protruding eye-balls, stout horns, wide opened mouth suggesting a roar and canine teeth protruding out of it. The legend of the creation of the Kirtimukha is as follows: Siva, it seems, was just about to marry the beautiful Parvati, when a messenger came to him from the land of the demons. This messenger was Rahu, the demon who every now and then swallows the sun and so causes eclipses. The message he brought was that the king of the demons considered Siva unworthy to wed Parvati, and that he himself would take her instead. Siva became so angry that a monster sprang out from between his eyes and fell upon the unfortunate Rahu. This frightened Rahu so much that he threw himself at Siva's feet and begged for mercy. Siva, mollified, agreed to let him go. But the moster creature who was born of his wrath now turned upon Siva, and complained. "You created me to devour the demon," he protested. " What am I to do? I am hungry"
"Well," said Siva, “You will just have to eat yourself." And this the monster did. He began with his legs and then his arms, gradually eating himself up until nothing remained of him but the face. The blind unchallenging obedience to a casual remark so amused Siva that he appointed the the monster as guardian of his door, to be worshiped and fed with sacrificial meats by all who entered there, and named him Kirtimukha.
In my opinion, the Kirtimukha is the fore-runner of the Chinese Qiao Tu, or perhaps the Bi An , both said to be mounted on doors. But in China the monster face was not put on Hindu Temple doors. It ended up on prison doors as a fearsome frightening beast. There is a monster mask above the entrance door Ming Dynasty Su San Prison in Hongdong, Shanxi. The prison, named after the heroine in the Peking Opera Yutangchun, was damaged during the "cultural revolution" (1966-76). In 1984 it was rebuilt and is now a tourist attraction. But no one seems to know the name of this monster mask.
[/quote]
#127
Publius
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- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
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- 1,399 posts
Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)
- Gender:Male
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- Interests:I enjoy Nature, reading, writing, history, cultures, biking, hockey, football, cinema, and spending time with my wife Patty.
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Main Interest in CHF:
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Specialisation / Expertise:
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Posted 24 September 2007 - 05:50 PM
To fulfill a promise to kaiselin, here are my pics from Datong's Nine Dragon Wall:
Avatar compliments of Lord Yoda
#128
Publius
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- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
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- 1,399 posts
Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)
- Gender:Male
- Location:Rockford, MI
- Interests:I enjoy Nature, reading, writing, history, cultures, biking, hockey, football, cinema, and spending time with my wife Patty.
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Main Interest in CHF:
Any chinese-related stuff
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Posted 24 September 2007 - 05:54 PM
Cont'd...
The marquis above says: "The Nine Dragon Wall was built in the 25th year of the reign of Hong Wu of the Ming Dynasty (AD, 1392). It was originally situated in front of Dai-King Zhu gui's mansion who was the 13th son of Zhu Yuan Zhang, the first emperor of the Ming dynasty. It dates back 600 years ago. The front of it faces to the north. It is 45.5 m long, 8 m high and 2.02 m wide. This Nine Dragon Wall is the largest glazed wall in China. It is a key historical and cultural site under state protection."
Unfortunately, I lost my pictures from both Nine Dragon Walls in Beijing...
The marquis above says: "The Nine Dragon Wall was built in the 25th year of the reign of Hong Wu of the Ming Dynasty (AD, 1392). It was originally situated in front of Dai-King Zhu gui's mansion who was the 13th son of Zhu Yuan Zhang, the first emperor of the Ming dynasty. It dates back 600 years ago. The front of it faces to the north. It is 45.5 m long, 8 m high and 2.02 m wide. This Nine Dragon Wall is the largest glazed wall in China. It is a key historical and cultural site under state protection."
Unfortunately, I lost my pictures from both Nine Dragon Walls in Beijing...
Avatar compliments of Lord Yoda
#129
kaiselin
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Posted 24 September 2007 - 06:00 PM
Just when I was beginning to think that you had left us for good.
Glad to see you are back.
The pics were well worth the wait, the detail is like I could almost touch them.
Where is the pearl that you show on the bottom left?
Is the picture on its side?
Glad to see you are back.
The pics were well worth the wait, the detail is like I could almost touch them.
Where is the pearl that you show on the bottom left?
Is the picture on its side?
You can only go halfway into the darkest forest; then you are coming out the other side.
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#130
Publius
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Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)
- Gender:Male
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- Interests:I enjoy Nature, reading, writing, history, cultures, biking, hockey, football, cinema, and spending time with my wife Patty.
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Main Interest in CHF:
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Posted 24 September 2007 - 06:06 PM
Just when I was beginning to think that you had left us for good.
Glad to see you are back.
The pics were well worth the wait, the detail is like I could almost touch them.
Where is the pearl that you show on the bottom left?
Is the picture on its side?
Oops, the pearl was on its side. This object was photographed on the eastern end of the wall and there is the character for sun (日
ri) in the pearl, though I'm guessing that this character was not originally etched in the glaze..?
Avatar compliments of Lord Yoda
#131
Pattie
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Shan Hai Jing
Posted 24 September 2007 - 06:14 PM
Where is the pearl that you show on the bottom left?
Is the picture on its side?
Yes, it is, and it's on the small side of the wall. You would pass it on your way to the other side of the wall. Doubtless there's one on the other side. You can just see it on the picture showing the complete wall.
And you're right, the pictures are wonderful!!!
Thanks for sharing, Publius.
Cheers,
_________________________________________________________
I had begun to cherish words excessively for the space they allow around them, for their tangencies with countless other words that I did not utter. Andre Breton
Pattie
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I had begun to cherish words excessively for the space they allow around them, for their tangencies with countless other words that I did not utter. Andre Breton
#132
shunyadragon
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- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
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Posted 01 October 2007 - 04:59 PM
Origin of the chinese dragon
In 1988, at the Yangshao culture ruin (dated to some 3000-2500 BC), appeared a graphical representation of a dragon using bones and shells. This is currently the earliest achaeological discovery of the "chinese dragon", tracing the origin of the dragon in chinese culture. In China, the symbol and idea of dragon is varied. In general, the ancient chinese put together several animals to form the dragon, which became a symbol. The chinese character "Long (龙)" for dragon first appeared at the Shang Oracles and Jin Script (currently the oldest known chinese writing form). This showed that dragon had already appeared in the culture of Shang dynasty . One can say that the dragon is an art for Shang, which was a product created by combining various animals, thus the dragon itself is a symbolic representation of chinese art.
The mosaic river pebble, possibly also shell and bone of a loong like figure that looks more like the Yangtze Crocodile I saw near Luxin in Liaoning Province is attributed to the Chahai Culture dated by different sources between ~5700 to 4000 BCE. I belive this comes closest to the earliest representation of a loong like figure in Neolithic China.
Frank
Go with the flow the river knows.
化干戈为玉帛 Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk.
www.shunyadragon.com
Go with the flow the river knows.
化干戈为玉帛 Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk.
www.shunyadragon.com
#133
shunyadragon
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- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
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Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)
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- Interests:Jade, Arts of the Way (Martial Arts), Oriental Gargens, Chinese culture and history, Chess (international, Chinese, Indian, Mongul, Korean, Turkish and Japanese). Artist
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Posted 01 October 2007 - 05:15 PM
When did the dragon first appear in the west,in my mind it shows signs how chinese culutre and technologies were being travelled west.
Dinosaur and ancient large mammal bones played a role in the early dipictions of dragon-like creatures and other mythical creatures of Greece and Mesopotamia. In fact there is evidence that ancient bones probably played a role in the Orient, particularly from Mongolia.
Frank
Go with the flow the river knows.
化干戈为玉帛 Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk.
www.shunyadragon.com
Go with the flow the river knows.
化干戈为玉帛 Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk.
www.shunyadragon.com
#134
kaiselin
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Posted 01 October 2007 - 09:07 PM
The mosaic river pebble, possibly also shell and bone of a loong like figure that looks more like the Yangtze Crocodile I saw near Luxin in Liaoning Province is attributed to the Chahai Culture dated by different sources between ~5700 to 4000 BCE. I belive this comes closest to the earliest representation of a loong like figure in Neolithic China.
This is very intriguing information, do you have a picture that you could post?
You can only go halfway into the darkest forest; then you are coming out the other side.
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#135
shunyadragon
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- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
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Posted 02 October 2007 - 11:38 AM
This is very intriguing information, do you have a picture that you could post?
When I visited several years ago they would not let me take pictures of it, so i made a sketch. I will scan and post the sketch i made shortly. Since I visited they covered it up to protect it.
One comment is that I do not believe all Neolithic images that are Loong-like are necessarilly Loong. Many may be simply depictions of animals like the Yangze Croc. The earliest probable true Chinese Loong were the carvings found in the tombs of Eastern China's Neolithic Cultures. These carvings were usually found in pairs, or two carved into one, like a half-circle huang and broken and burned in a burial ritual.
Edited by shunyadragon, 02 October 2007 - 12:30 PM.
Frank
Go with the flow the river knows.
化干戈为玉帛 Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk.
www.shunyadragon.com
Go with the flow the river knows.
化干戈为玉帛 Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk.
www.shunyadragon.com
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