180 replies to this topic

[MengTzu]

It has the meaning that you give it, that's all
as for Dragons in Christianity...

I've heard that early depictions of Angels have them as scaled, winged, with breath of fire/acid

and Satan is cursed to crawl on his belly (a snake), but if a snake could walk and fly (as an Angel), what would it be?

Biblical Angels get really bizzare looking, it seems to be more 'recent' a thing to depict them as handsome humans.

Nagas are probably derived from sightings of Oarfish

I'm not aware of any Biblical angel that looks like a dragon.

The angels who visited Abraham must've looked remarkably human, so that Abraham treated them as guests.

The cherubims and seraphims, special classes of angels, in fact look very fantastic. For example: http://www.bluelette...Eze001.html#top

Each of these cherubims have human form, but four wings, four faces, and eyes all along their wings.

[ih8eurocentrix]

1.What does dragon symbolize
2.whats the history of the dragon in china
3.do u think a dragon is based on Komodo dragon
4.do u think that the idea of a dragon spread west to europe

[Yun]

You have NO idea how much controversy we had about the dragon recently, do you? Lucky guy

See these threads:

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=4704

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=7815

http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=119

http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=333

As for the idea of the dragon coming from the Komodo dragon, that's very unlikely because the Komodo dragon only lives on Komodo island and the Chinese did not have any contact with the Indonesian islands when they first started using the dragon as a mythological creature and a symbol.

There is more likelihood that the myth of the dragon (both the Western and Chinese ones) was related to the discovery of dinosaur bones by ancient people, or even the possibility of dinosaurs still existing in early history (yes, I know that the standard palaeontological position is that dinosaurs were extinct millions of years before human beings existed, but non-evolutionists don't subscribe to that... and let's not get into this issue).

[shunyadragon]

1.What does dragon symbolize
2.whats the history of the dragon in china
3.do u think a dragon is based on Komodo dragon? NO
4.do u think that the idea of a dragon spread west to europe? NO

The origins of the dragon are very interesting and part of the subject of my research into Chinese culture and history. The two animals primarilly responsible for the image of the dragon are the pig and the Yangzi River Crocodile. The earliest Neolithic depictions of the dragon in northeast and east central Neolithic China are images of the pig dragon called zhulong, and the Yangzi River Crocodile. The pig is the most important animal in Chinese history, and the earliest jade and jade-like stone carvings known are fetal forms of the pig and pig dragon with a blunt knose, spiky main and tusks. Over time the images of the dragon included charactoristics of the Yangzi River croc and other animals. The dragon did have nine sons, each with charactoristics of different animals such as the turtle dragon and fish dragon. Variations of these carvings of pigs and pig dragons are found in pairs in tombs throughout much of Chinese history.

The dragon may be the king, but his daddy was the pig.

In China silk is silk and porcelain is porcelian, but the long is not a dragon, the fenghuang is not the pheonix, and yu is not jade.

Edited by shunyadragon, 12 November 2005 - 08:19 PM.

[ih8eurocentrix]

When did the dragon first appear in the west,in my mind it shows signs how chinese culutre and technologies were being travelled west.

[shunyadragon]

When did the dragon first appear in the west,in my mind it shows signs how chinese culture and technologies were being travelled west.

I believe the dragon of the west and the long of the east had different origins in ancient legends and mythology. They are different enough and seperate enough in time and space to be considered different.

Edited by shunyadragon, 16 November 2005 - 09:18 AM.

[Dina]

Was not the Dragon image from the Neolithic era before Shang?
No one never talks about the neolithic era.
Being Chinese crocodile transformation, typical from the neolithic tribes totem that used an animal for workship and also for symbolizes them?
Dina

[CARDINAL009]

Q: Has anyone ever heard of the story that the Chinese Dragon is a meta-composition of many animals?

[maestro]

<span style='color:green'>Haoxian

A reckless and adventuous dragon whose image can be found decorating the eaves of palaces.


Yazi

Valiant and bellicose; his image is seen on sword-hilts and knife hilts.


Chiwen

Chiwen likes to gaze into the distance and his appearance is often carved on pinnacles.


Baxia

Baxia is a good swimmer and his image decorates many bridge piers and archways.


Pulao

Pulao is fond of roaring and his figure is carved on bells.


Bixi

Bixi is an excellent pack-animal whose image appears on panniers.


Qiuniu

Qiuniu loves music and his figure is a common decoration on the bridge of stringed musical instruments.


Suanmi

Suanmi is fond of smoke and fire; his likeness can be seen on the legs of incense-burners.


Jiaotu

Jiaotu is as tight-lipped as a mussel or a snail. His image is carved on doors.


</span>

hi damo, can you or someone else repost the missing pic (ya zi etc) ?

[farg]

The western dragon is viewed differently from the Chinese dragon.
The western dragon is a hoarder of gold and treasure, a lurer of virgins an adversary to be destroyed by a hero, but this was not always the way. Most attribute this to the fact the Catholic Church viewed the dragon symbol as linked to paganism, thus in Christian Medieval tales the great saints defeat evil dragons. Christianity prevails over the Pagans.

Earliest people of the West who took the Dragon symbol would be the Celtic tribes of Europe even before the arrival of the Romans. The Celts held the red dragon as a symbol of authority for their Kings. The dragon spread after 100AD throughout the Roman Empire as a military insignia.

When the Hun swept through western Europe they brought with them their dragons. In Britain the red dragon of the celts faced the white dragon of the Saxon's in the battle for supremacy. Wales still holds the red dragon as it's flag, Saxon England was last represented by it's White dragon when King Harold fell at the battle of Hastings. And the Norman lion became England's symbol

My thoughts on this are speculative rather than scientific. Historically in europe (pre christian) dragons were associated with the earth and the power of the earth, knowledge and magical power. I do not know much about the dragon in chineses history, but i always got the impression form my martial arts that the dragon was very much to do with the energy of the universe and manifesting that in the body. Also i think chinese dragons have a liking for caves mountains etc. My personal theory comes from the observation that the forces of nature were very important to all early prehistoric peoples. The fascination with the activities of the heavenly bodies, the seasons etc. and of course the earth in the sense of earhquakes and volcanic activity - would it not be easy for a people with no 'scientific' knowledge to imagine some creature/force in the depths of the earth moving and shaking its tail and causing earthquakes and then when the earth cracks open red hot fiery lava flows out (do not dragons often breath fire) does not lava flow in a sinuously fluid motion (like the dragon). The earth also produces energy in other forms when quarts rock deposits experince sciesmic forces they can radiate ligh and electromagnetic energy there is an idea amongst 'new age/pagans' in europe of earth energy and this being very significant and traces its orogins back to pre roman times. My guess is that many cultures came to similar conclusions and depiced these in similar ways (of course they would have been influenced by othere localy important images eg in europe snakes in asia crocdiles etc). And as is on earth so is in heaven, where we have ligtning/fire shooting across the sky another very mysterious form of energy that can be destructive and cause fire and moves is a dragonish way. So my idea is that the dragon represents initailly physical forces and that this also then developed a spiritual dimension in taoist tradition this is a force very much outside of ourselfs that can take us over in order to teach us what we could not otherwise learn.

[kaiselin]

9 Dragon Sons
There are more names depending on the source.
Here are the ones that I found most often listed.

I have been collecting pictures of all the sons.
BIXI (BA XIA?)
likes to carry heavy loads. is often depicted as a tortoise under a heavy stone table.

CHIWEN
likes to see very far, is usually shown on the eave of a building , protects building from fire.
He is also often depicted as a fish or a whale.

PU LAO
is a small dragon who likes to roar. He is depicted on Bells. Looks sort of like a cat or lion in build.
In one reference it said he looked like a Taper.
Is called the Jail and warns of enemy attacks.
Is the enemy of whales. the stick used to strike the bell is called the whale.

BIAN
looks like a tiger. can tell who is good or evil.
Detests criminals
Is found on prison doors to frighten prisoners.

TAO TIE
means Glutton, is found on Shang food ware.
Is a warning not to be a glutton.

GONG FU (or BA XIA?)
likes water. lies prone. is shown on bridges.
( I found a great picture of him reclining on the side of a retaining wall by a bridge, .
He has his head hanging over and looks mournful .
Or perhaps is looking to see a fish to catch.)

(BA XIA?
loves words written on carved tablets.
depicted lying (prone) on the top of a stone pillar looking down grief stricken at a tortoise (BIXI).
I am confused about BA XIA, Have seen him listed as BIXI, GONG FU, and separately.)

YAZI
fierce , loves fighting, killing and war. is usually depicted on the quilion of a sword or on an axe head

SUANNI
a small wild lion, or a small horse as in Lung Ta the Wind Horse.
likes smoke. Is depicted most often on incense burners.

JIAO TU
looks like a conch, oyster or clam. (the Chinese character translates to hot and peppery.
does not like to be disturbed.
is depicted on doors or doorsteps.
(guarding the door by keeping it shut as tight as a clam?)

I have also seen other siblings mentioned:

QUINIU
likes music , is depicted on the head of Mongolian instruments (the qin or zither?)
looks like a horse.

I have found reference to female dragons . Sisters?

JIAO and LI
minor hornless yin female dragons.
both are evil and malicious,

( Of course the females would be minor and malicious
Who raised or cared for the pearls in the clams ????

I found reference to a JIAO being a swamp dragon.
Is it referring to the yin/female JIAO or to JIAO TU as a oyster/clam.
Connection of the swamp or perhaps tide pools are where the oyster/clams are found.
the pearl comes from oysters.
Then could it be that one of the sons was a woman? As in Mulan?
I like that idea even if it is not factual.)

I also found a list of 9 types of classical dragon types.
I do not know if these are also considered aspects of the 9 dragon sons.

TIANLONG celestial
SHENLONG spiritual
FUCANGLONG hidden treasures
DILONG underground, earth dragon
YINGLONG winged dragon
JIAOLONG horned dragon
PANLONG coiled dragon
HUANGLONG yellow (river?) dragon
WANGLONG dragon king

If not which category do the 9 sons fit into?

Is there a connection betweem the 9 dragon sons and the ranking of imperial testing exams and the ranking of the officials?

The officials ranking was designated by a different colored knob that holds on the red horsehair plume on the top of their hat, as well as the color of their robes.
I have a picture of a 6th rank official, it has a white knob.

The raking went from 9 being the lowest, which I think was a teacher among other things.
The highest is 1 (rather like belt raking in karate,in some systems, when you pass the final level of 1 you are a black belt )

There must be a correlation to the symbolism of the fish jumping the falls/dragons gates.
To jump a gate /gate symbolic for passing an exam.
There are 9 falls/gates to jump. when you reach the top one it is said that the fish turns in to a dragon.


Does anyone know the colors of the different 9 sons, and who is ranked where?

What are the colors of the robes and hat knobs of the imperial officials?

Edited by kaiselin, 21 January 2007 - 10:32 PM.

[kaiselin]

TIANLONG celestial
SHENLONG spiritual
FUCANGLONG hidden treasures
DILONG underground, earth dragon
YINGLONG winged dragon
JIAOLONG horned dragon
PANLONG coiled dragon
HUANGLONG yellow (river?) dragon
WANGLONG dragon king

Dragons from the west are mostly all composites of the above list.
I see all dragons as a form of morphing chimera.
There are both good and bad dragons .
some are a little of both,
That does not make them evil.
you can look at dragons on many different levels.
I think that the eastern dragon is an evolved beyond the primitive viewpoint of the west.

It represents the aspects of nature.
Nature can be both good and bad.
we all love a nice day,a light soaking rain or even enjoy the beauty of a fresh coating of snow on a pine tree.
An ice storm or flood is no laughing mater.

The Chinese dragon is credited with causing these events.
the manifestation and explanation of a natural force.

the western dragon was at one time the same thing

The Norse Yggdrasil was neither evil or good
It performs the job of holding the world ? universe together.
In appearance Yggdrasil is similar to ZHU the illuminating dragon or a naga.
It looks like a serpent
or perhaps the coiling dragon PANLONG.
Endlessly eating its own tail.
the cycle of seasons never ending.

The dragons of the Germanic and Norse myths were not really evil, but misunderstood.
Even as horrible as a western dragon might be ,it was a noble beast.
The tellers of their myths tell a one-sided view. they could not step back and see the whole story.
It is the story of man , not of the dragon.


Dragons are beneficial, intelligent beings.
If the hero approached a dragon with reverence, the dragon could be benevolent.
If you give no respect, the Dragon returns what is given.

It is all how you look at it.
yin and yang.

The church saw an opportunity to warp a pagan symbol representing the unpredictable forces of nature into something evil.
Banned the old stories and twisted the new versions to lead the pagans away from their "evil" cultural beliefs.
They took the dragon and made it an aspect of Satin/ Evil.

Nature is not evil.
If the dragon is representing nature then it can not be evil.
Uncontrollable, maybe, unpredictable, yes, Evil no.

Nature can be beautiful.
It can also turn in an instant and be unbelievably horrible.
That doesn't make it evil.
It is not the dragon that has created global warming.
It is man.
So if we are going to lay blame of evil on someone.
I don't think that it is the dragon.

Edited by kaiselin, 21 January 2007 - 10:16 PM.

[maestro]

Hi Kaieserin...
stop talking and start posting 9 son dragon pic please
the more, the bigger, the better

to post image is easy :
1. open an account in photobucket.com. DOnt ever forget your login name and password
2. there is upload the pic use 'upload' button
3. Once it uploaded open the pic (click the tumbnail) the site will show the pic and some link address to the pic which you can copy and paste to this forum...

Edited by maestro, 12 January 2007 - 11:52 PM.

[kaiselin]

Hi Kaieserin...
stop talking and start posting 9 son dragon pic please
the more, the bigger, the better

to post image is easy :
1. open an account in photobucket.com. DOnt ever forget your login name and password
2. there is upload the pic use 'upload' button
3. Once it uploaded open the pic (click the tumbnail) the site will show the pic and some link address to the pic which you can copy and paste to this forum...

thank you !!!!!! Maestro,

here are the pics

GONGFU or BA XIA?






BIXI or BA XIA ?


HAOXIAN?
Please compare these two pics.
Haoxian looks like QILIN,
(Please forgive the poor editing I did on the building behind the eaves I could not stand seeing the
wires and pipes . it was my first attempt at using the bacic paint program.)





TAO TIE
(I have noticedd that tao tie often looks like a BAT)



PANLONG (coiling Dragon)

Edited by kaiselin, 21 January 2007 - 10:35 PM.

[kaiselin]

Is there a connectio between the 9 levels of offical exams and the 9 dragon sons?
6th leval officials hat

Edited by kaiselin, 21 January 2007 - 10:38 PM.