68 replies to this topic

[JiG]

You can say the Spartans' style of warfare was limited- phalanx/hoplite warfare is great but it lacks the range power of cavalry.

Sparta had perfect spearmen
Mongols had perfect cavalry

If Sparta's tactics and strategies inlcuded cavalry/missile units then SParta would have steamrolled the mongols faster than Ghengis Khan can say "dayum thsoe Greeks are hardcore!"

Are you kidding me? Do you even know what kind of environment Greece is? or even worse Sparta? Spartans would have never been able to support calvary in their army in any number close to the Mongols.

You guys are also missing the biggest component to why the Spartans were not able to expand like the Mongols did. Spartan society was based off slavery. Spartans had enslaved the entire population of Laconia and thus every Spartan had to train as a soldier in order to suppress the slaves who they forced to do all their hard labor which they lived off of. Therefore Spartans were always historically reluctant to wage wars in any far away lands because they feared that if they left a slave revolt would break out.

This is why I think the movie 300 is a joke because in the movie Leonidas constantly insults the Persian king for having slaves, while at the same time the movie conveniently forgets to mention that Spartan society was built off of slavery. That why in the movie Leonidas could ask his men what profession they were and they could reply back with a dog bark whereas the Thebans could only reply that they were potters and farmers in comparison. lol

Also another reason why Spartans were not as successful as the Mongols was because they were not as progressive as the Mongols. The Mongols upon defeating their enemies would incorporate foreign things that were superior to what they currently had. Thus it was almost like a snowballing effect of Mongol power as they conquered city after city. They incorporated things like Chinese artillery, Middle eastern astronomers and physicians, etc...

Also from a tactical standpoint I think the Mongols were by far more superior, their speed was not matched till the introduction of modern mechanized infantry. Mongol strategies are also studied by modern tacticians because they were innovative, creative and before their time. They had superior generalship because of the meritocracy which allowed positions to be decided by skill rather than birthrights. Making it possible for Subotai, who was born the son of a blacksmith, to conquer 2 nations and win 65 pitched battles throughout his military career.

To compare both of these armies who are said to be the most greatest of their time, and then ask which one is superior, is not very fair because without a doubt a Mongol army would destroy a Spartan army had they ever fought in battle. But this doesn't say much since almost any army during the Mongols time would have done the same because of the advances in weaponry and armor between the ancient and medieval times.

Edited by JiG, 26 September 2007 - 09:54 PM.

[Richard Lim]

Spartan society was based off slavery. Spartans had enslaved the entire population of Laconia and thus every Spartan had to train as a soldier in order to suppress the slaves who they forced to do all their hard labor which they lived off of. Therefore Spartans were always historically reluctant to wage wars in any far away lands because they feared that if they left a slave revolt would break out.

Don't mean to nitpick and I do agree with your overall point but the subjugated population within the Lacedaemonian (Spartan) state, esp. in Messenia, were helots not (chattel) slaves. It's a distinction worth maintaining since helots were essentially agricultural serfs who went with the land.

[Suren911]

in the Yasa to further bring Mongol soldiers and Mongol society in general closer like making it a crime to ever refuse food to another Mongol.

That's why one should never refuse the offers of a Mongol. It's considered HIGHLY inappropriate and almost like an insult when you're offered something and you refuse it.

[JiG]

That's why one should never refuse the offers of a Mongol. It's considered HIGHLY inappropriate and almost like an insult when you're offered something and you refuse it.

Thats funny because in Tibetan society its almost the opposite. When someone offers you something your supposed to refuse at first and then the person is supposed to keep hassling you to take it and then you finally give in. Its tough when you get used to it because then when you go elsewhere to a non-Tibetans house and they offer you something you actually want you'll instinctively say no.

Edited by JiG, 27 September 2007 - 01:44 PM.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

A big difference between Spartan and Mongol warriors is the whole practice of homosexuality. Spartans send their boys to a grown man's household to learn about fighting when they're 14 years of age in exchange for their manual labor and sexual favors. Don't believe me? Look it up. Homosexuality was not practiced among Mongols. And I'm glad.

Ghenghis Khan alone is said to have impregnated hundreds if not thousands of conquered women, his genes is in every conqured nations.

[Suren911]

^Watch what you're saying. There are no historical basis for that whatsoever. I love how idiots love to spew **** out of their mouths like they're know-it-alls especially about a great historical figure.

^^JiG that's hilarious. So you only accept things when you're hasseled senselessly?

[Yang Zongbao]

Suren, I am as doubtful of Wan Ren's claims as much as you are, but I think you should probably tone it down a bit. Consider it a verbal warning.

It is pretty true that the claim that 99.9% of the world or whatever statistic it is a descendant of Genghis is really getting annoying though. =/

[TwinkieDP]

^Watch what you're saying. There are no historical basis for that whatsoever. I love how idiots love to spew **** out of their mouths like they're know-it-alls especially about a great historical figure.

^^JiG that's hilarious. So you only accept things when you're hasseled senselessly?

That's why one should never refuse the offers of a Mongol. It's considered HIGHLY inappropriate and almost like an insult when you're offered something and you refuse it.

Wow, is Suren a decendent of the Khans? Why are you so protective of the Mongols?

Edited by TwinkieDP, 28 September 2007 - 02:38 PM.

[JiG]

^^JiG that's hilarious. So you only accept things when you're hassled senselessly?

Well when I go to another Tibetans place or if I'm receiving a gift its customary to decline at first, I guess it's so you don't appear too greedy. Also my parents would also tell me things like always accept gifts from people with two hands but I think other Asian cultures are like this as well? Me personally though I don't really take a lot of hassling to take something, that is if I want whatever it is or if its a gift from someone, but I'll still customarily say no and I guess its also sort of ingrained into me. But some Tibetans you really really have to almost force them to receive something. Like "COME ON TAKE IT!!"

Its frustrating sometimes for me when another Tibetan declines something you offer because I'm not sure if they are just saying that because its customary or if they really don't want it. And also I don't really like to hassle the person about it either. Actually hassle sounds like a bad word to use because its all in good spirit, but its just like they keep offering until you put up enough resistance or give in. haha. Its a good show sometimes haha.

Edited by JiG, 28 September 2007 - 03:37 PM.

[Suren911]

Suren, I am as doubtful of Wan Ren's claims as much as you are, but I think you should probably tone it down a bit. Consider it a verbal warning.

It is pretty true that the claim that 99.9% of the world or whatever statistic it is a descendant of Genghis is really getting annoying though. =/

I didn't exactly say Wan Ren was an idiot. You can warn me if you want, but I have no respect for uhhh I guess I shouldn't say idiot... How about people with blind bias? Ignorance? Ethnocentricity? People of low intellect?

I thought Chinahistoryforum is one of the better places to be for intellectual discussions. If he is going to claim that Genghis Khan had many heirs, he might as well show some support for his poor argument. As far as historical records are concerned, he had 4 sons. If you can find me a LEGITIMATE source that says he had tons of concubines and children, I'd LOVE to read it. As someone of Mongol descent, it's disrespectful when someone EVERYONE of Mongol descent respects is compared to some sex crazed tyrant. How would you feel if some non-Chinese person came up to you and said "Your ancestors screwed tons of people. Heh you're all bastards cause your emperors had millions of concubines. LOL." Are you going to sit around while taking this kind of insult?

Well when I go to another Tibetans place or if I'm receiving a gift its customary to decline at first, I guess it's so you don't appear too greedy. Also my parents would also tell me things like always accept gifts from people with two hands but I think other Asian cultures are like this as well? Me personally though I don't really take a lot of hassling to take something, that is if I want whatever it is or if its a gift from someone, but I'll still customarily say no and I guess its also sort of ingrained into me. But some Tibetans you really really have to almost force them to receive something. Like "COME ON TAKE IT!!"

Its frustrating sometimes for me when another Tibetan declines something you offer because I'm not sure if they are just saying that because its customary or if they really don't want it. And also I don't really like to hassle the person about it either. Actually hassle sounds like a bad word to use because its all in good spirit, but its just like they keep offering until you put up enough resistance or give in. haha. Its a good show sometimes haha.

Actually I know what you mean with the first point. Most Asian cultures are like that haha... you're given a gift but you're supposed to say "Oh no... you shouldn't have... awwwwww" even though you're dying to tear open the wrapping. HAHAHA. And yes, you should receive it with both of your hands too. Since I've been living in the West for a number of years now, I don't really take a whole lot of persisting to receive the offer. I'm starting to wonder about my family members in that I'd give them gifts and they'd tell me no no no. So do they honestly NOT want it or are they just being very modest?? I'm not sure what to think anymore haha. Mongols are known to be rather hot headed and indeed, I cannot defend them. Two friends go out for dinner and both offer to pay but they'd eventually get into an argument about who should pay because both are saying "No, I WILL pay for dinner. And eventually a fist fight breaks out and the winner does in fact get to pay for it. A kind gesture turned... not so kind. LOL. But yeah, it is quite the show haha.

[Yang Zongbao]

I didn't exactly say Wan Ren was an idiot. You can warn me if you want, but I have no respect for uhhh I guess I shouldn't say idiot... How about people with blind bias? Ignorance? Ethnocentricity? People of low intellect?

I thought Chinahistoryforum is one of the better places to be for intellectual discussions. If he is going to claim that Genghis Khan had many heirs, he might as well show some support for his poor argument. As far as historical records are concerned, he had 4 sons. If you can find me a LEGITIMATE source that says he had tons of concubines and children, I'd LOVE to read it. As someone of Mongol descent, it's disrespectful when someone EVERYONE of Mongol descent respects is compared to some sex crazed tyrant. How would you feel if some non-Chinese person came up to you and said "Your ancestors screwed tons of people. Heh you're all bastards cause your emperors had millions of concubines. LOL." Are you going to sit around while taking this kind of insult?

Actually I know what you mean with the first point. Most Asian cultures are like that haha... you're given a gift but you're supposed to say "Oh no... you shouldn't have... awwwwww" even though you're dying to tear open the wrapping. HAHAHA. And yes, you should receive it with both of your hands too. Since I've been living in the West for a number of years now, I don't really take a whole lot of persisting to receive the offer. I'm starting to wonder about my family members in that I'd give them gifts and they'd tell me no no no. So do they honestly NOT want it or are they just being very modest?? I'm not sure what to think anymore haha. Mongols are known to be rather hot headed and indeed, I cannot defend them. Two friends go out for dinner and both offer to pay but they'd eventually get into an argument about who should pay because both are saying "No, I WILL pay for dinner. And eventually a fist fight breaks out and the winner does in fact get to pay for it. A kind gesture turned... not so kind. LOL. But yeah, it is quite the show haha.

Nah, I'm not going to warn you. Just be a little more mindful.

I personally find how Asian culture always offers, and always has the customary refusal of the second party. It can be unnerving if you aren't sure if they actually want it, true. But while I do modestly refuse for the sake of custom, I find that someone will have to accept eventually, and if they truly want to give it, who am I to remain obstinate forever? That is, of course, given that they're not making a ridiculously generous and inconvenient (to them) offer that it would simply be rude to accept.

[Publius]

It was either a Newsweek or a Time Magazine special issue that focused on World Conquerors. This issue reported that 7 or 8 percent of the living population was reputed to be descendents of Ghengis Kahn. Just because it was printed does not mean that it's true, but accusing members of spewing **** and of being idiots for believing a popularly believed statistics is more egregious. If any member disagrees with what another member says, please provide counter-evidence instead of calling other member idiots.

Suren911, you didn't have to "exactly say it" to say it. Attacking other members instead of attacking ideas is considered flamebaiting, so as Yang previously said, consider yourself warned. You can easily refute an idea without typing implied swearwords or using instigating words like "idiots."

If you have any questions, please send me a PM and we can discuss it.

Cheers,

Publius

[Suren911]

^No questions. Read my post again, not once did I say HE spewed stuffyoudropinyouryoilet out of his mouth. It's not my problem if one so chooses to be so sensitive about it and insist that the said criticism was directed at him. And, if I must attack an idea to get my point through instead of a person, then I am against the idea that people of at least normal intellect can believe in such outrageous and baseless claims like Genghis Khan impregnated hundreds and thousands of women over his life time. I am also AGAINST THE IDEA of defamying a people's highly respected leader. If his comment was directed at any other historical figure, I would still stand my ground. I simply found his comment vile. There.

Regarding Genghis Khan's Y chromosome:
Why does the world today consist of a lot of blue eyed people? There was one person at the very beginning with blue eyes, and genes are passed down this way. Genghis Khan had 4 sons and they were all powerful men and all of Central Asia and the Middle East were at their hands. They then handed down their thrones to the heirs one generation after another, and so forth. It doesn't exactly take a genius to figure out why such a percentage of men in Central Asia have the same Y chromosome that is from the same guy. Count your fingers if you must... 1 leader, and then 4 sons, and what if they all had 4 kids... 4x4 = 16... oh boy I don't have 16 fingers... and they all have quite a few sons and for many many generations THERE COULD BE MILLIONS. Surprise of the century! I do hope that people who do not understand this concept not reproduce and kindly receive the Darwin Award and generously remove themselves from the gene pool.

[Mei Houwang]

Don't you think you're taking it a bit too far? Wa said Genghis Khan had lots of sex(and I disagree with him), he didn't really give a middle finger to Mongolian culture. Chinese emperors do tend to impregnate as many women as they can(including some of the 'good' ones), but stating that, even when the particular emperor did not have such sexual activities, would merely be wrong but not that much offensive.

Mao is a highly respected leader within China, but a villain when outside of it. People criticize him all the time, including things over sex, some debatable, some probably completely false. If they're right than they're right, but if they're wrong than just prove them wrong.

Edited by Anthrophobia, 29 September 2007 - 12:38 AM.

[大学语文12345]

Brave gal!
It's our gal, a real Mongol gal! Outstraight, stubborn but lovely!

Forgive me, General Yang Zhon Bao I don't want to challenge you majesty, but I can't hide my feeling. Suren is a outstraight gal.

Edited by 大学语文12345, 29 September 2007 - 05:47 AM.