68 replies to this topic

[nee]

If Genghis decided to rape every female subjugate he came across (that is, assuming they werent slaughtered/ raped/ sold to slavery by other mongols) I doubt the victims would sit down and say "Gosh, lets raise the child!". Assuming, of course, they weren't killed/ committed suicide/ etc. afterwards.

Legitimate heirs and actual family is a different matter. Regardless, the theory that Genghis Khan impregnated "millions" of women is ridiculous.

As for my previous statement in the thread, I said "if", JiG.

[Suren911]

^Thank God. Someone finally gets my point. Maybe this world isn't so hopeless afterall.

[Boleslaw I]

^Thank God. Someone finally gets my point. Maybe this world isn't so hopeless afterall.

Huhm, what is an awkward theory about Genghis Khan and his offsprings. I see no clues in this such a discussion. Better to stick with the original topic, rather than offer alternatives without historical source to back up.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

^Watch what you're saying. There are no historical basis for that whatsoever. I love how idiots love to spew **** out of their mouths like they're know-it-alls especially about a great historical figure.

^^JiG that's hilarious. So you only accept things when you're hasseled senselessly?

I agree too many idiots.... but, I am sure those authors were not idiots. Right now, because there is no other proof to say that Genghis Khan did not spread his genes through conquest nor did he practice monolygamy I would have to agree with those authors that say base on DNA reports and findings Genghis Khan impregnated many women......this proof he is not gay

http://news.national...14_genghis.html


http://en.wikipedia....ki/Genghis_Khan

http://www.kuro5hin....2/8/214236/6651

Edited by Wan Ren aka Danny, 01 October 2007 - 05:35 PM.

[Yang Zongbao]

Brave gal!
It's our gal, a real Mongol gal! Outstraight, stubborn but lovely!

Forgive me, General Yang Zhon Bao I don't want to challenge you majesty, but I can't hide my feeling. Suren is a outstraight gal.

Haha, how is that challenging my majesty?

Suren's a great person, she just needs to able to keep a lid on her temper and avoid stepping over any rules.

That said, if we can all restrain ourselves a little in the face of Wan Ren's new post, I think that my job here is done. Carry on friends.

[polar_zen]

A big difference between Spartan and Mongol warriors is the whole practice of homosexuality. Spartans send their boys to a grown man's household to learn about fighting when they're 14 years of age in exchange for their manual labor and sexual favors. Don't believe me? Look it up. Homosexuality was not practiced among Mongols. And I'm glad.

Although homosexuality was practiced by Spartans, it was not for the reasons you're mentioning. Although objectively it was homosexuality, it wasn't in the same sense as the word connotes nowadays. Spartan warriors were taught to love one another and form a close bond which allowed for unity and strength in battle. If one's lover died in battle, of course you would fight twice as hard to avenge him.

On your statement that Mongols didn't practice homosexuality...I doubt that. Ghengis Khan banned homosexual practices from his tribes. Why would he "ban" something if it was never practiced in the first place. It would have had to happen among some Mongol warriors or other tribesmen in order for there to be a reaction or law against it. On top of that some form of homosexuality is practiced in all cultures, either subversively and clandestinely or openly like in Sparta.

[Zorigo]

main difference here is

-Mongols became tough fighters in order to survive in harsh climate and extreme cruel tribal struggle. Mongols wanted to live in peace and to became many, having many children (populate). Example is that Chinggis Khaan's gene is everywhere. It is all about survival instinct, natural selection of toughest survive and weak ones die. Mongols were eager for life and fighting to survive in between most populace nations and civilizations. IT IS NATURAL

- Spartans became tough fighters just for GLORY. They live in mild climate of midterranean, surrounding states were peaceful city states. Only Spartans themselves created their own artifical selection of their own children at birth/ intentional harsh threatment on their children in order to make them tough fighters. So negative effect of Spartan tradition is self destructive/ disappearance of Nation of Sparta. IT IS UNNATURAL

----------------------
regarding homosexuality:- There is no folk tale or legend or historical documents about homosexuality among Mongols. But as we read about history of Mongols, we notice influence of other civilizations as it was on late Yuan Dynasty corrupted rulers, which were under influence lamas of tantric Buddhist.

Even todays Mongolian language, word homosexuality does not exist. There is a word GAZH DONTON -refers homosexuality as abnormally addicted

Edited by Zorigo, 01 October 2007 - 07:10 PM.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

Recess: Sparta invincibility was only for a short time in history but did the Spartans really made a big difference? were they able to unite all of Greece in spite of their reputation as mighty warriors one would have thought that Sparta would have united all of Greece through conquest?

The Atheneans and the Macedonians have a better record in nation building and conquest compare to the Spartans.

The bond that fighting men develop is strong because their lives depend on each other to survive in battles. What was being express in those days were brotherhood, men in arms helping each other to win and survive. Any homosexual practices is not what we have now, where men will act and dress like women or publicly express their gayness and declare themselves as not men.

Even the Great Alexander the Great is being percieved as gay.

There is no doubt that the Mongol warriors are far superior then the Spartans. The Mongol army have always been noted to face their enemy armies with a small force of 1 vs. 10 and the Mongols have alwats came out the victor not once but several times.

The only thing that the Spartans have an advantage over the Mongols is that........Hollywood movie makers are on their side, they can make those Spartans look really good.

Edited by Wan Ren aka Danny, 01 October 2007 - 07:19 PM.

[Suren911]

Suren's a great person, she just needs to able to keep a lid on her temper and avoid stepping over any rules.

That said, if we can all restrain ourselves a little in the face of Wan Ren's new post, I think that my job here is done. Carry on friends.

Again, I wasn't cursing out Wan Ren directly. I just got really irritated because I've read TOO MANY sources written by very ethnocentric supposed scholars about Genghis Khan. They had nothing to back themselves up, accused him of being half beast half man, raped millions, and died while fornicating. Plus, I got warned big time for it already.

GOING BACK ON TOPIC. Royally.

Although homosexuality was practiced by Spartans, it was not for the reasons you're mentioning. Although objectively it was homosexuality, it wasn't in the same sense as the word connotes nowadays. Spartan warriors were taught to love one another and form a close bond which allowed for unity and strength in battle. If one's lover died in battle, of course you would fight twice as hard to avenge him.

On your statement that Mongols didn't practice homosexuality...I doubt that. Ghengis Khan banned homosexual practices from his tribes. Why would he "ban" something if it was never practiced in the first place. It would have had to happen among some Mongol warriors or other tribesmen in order for there to be a reaction or law against it. On top of that some form of homosexuality is practiced in all cultures, either subversively and clandestinely or openly like in Sparta.

Homosexuality most likely existed in every culture. It even exists amongst other species e.g. apes (bonobos are notorious for this and they're not shy about it). I'm sure homosexuality existed but it's not generally known and forbidden throughout Mongol history. And I do know about the brotherly-love that the Spartans, as well as the Romans practiced. Yes, it's to make the soldiers bond closer together. Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, they all advocated for such as well. But in this respect, the Mongols and their European counterpart are different. Homosexuality is not used for bonding (no pun intended).

The only thing that the Spartans have an advantage over the Mongols is that........Hollywood movie makers are on their side, they can make those Spartans look really good.

AHH!! Say no more!


John Wayne... JOHN WAYNE? My heart just shriveled into a raisin. This hurts more than it looks.

[JiG]

I heard (I think from another thread on this forum) of this new movie coming out called "Mongol" directed by a Russian and done in the Mongolian language. I don't know too much about it but I heard its centered around Genghis Khan and its sort of a love story. Judging from the trailer you can see what looks to be Genghis' wife Borte being abducted by the Merkits, so I'm guessing maybe it centers around that or at least plays a part in the movie. I heard the actor who plays Genghis is Japanese. From the trailers it looks good, but I also heard that its controversial (it also says this in the Youtube trailer description). I think it had to do with the historical accuracy of the film that made it controversial. Sorry I could be wrong about most of this stuff since I am going from what I can recall.

Trailer 1


Trailer 2



Edit:

Here's a 5 minute clip from the movie I just found showing Genghis' battle with Jamuka which shows some strategy being used by him. I'm not sure how historically accurate the use of arrows as signals are though. I know the Mongol army used banners, instruments, and things like smoke signals for communicating orders but I don't think I've heard of arrows being used.

Double Edit
http://youtube.com/p...ultDOThereDOTws
I just found the whole movie on youtube but its all in mongolian/russian dubbed. Which sucks because I understand neither

Edited by JiG, 01 October 2007 - 10:17 PM.

[大学语文12345]

Actually speaking, it's a grand movie in terms of scene and investment, but it totally deviate the real nomadic war tactics and it's natural life. It's my personal opinion.

I heard (I think from another thread on this forum) of this new movie coming out called "Mongol" directed by a Russian and done in the Mongolian language. I don't know too much about it but I heard its centered around Genghis Khan and its sort of a love story. Judging from the trailer you can see what looks to be Genghis' wife Borte being abducted by the Merkits, so I'm guessing maybe it centers around that or at least plays a part in the movie. I heard the actor who plays Genghis is Japanese. From the trailers it looks good, but I also heard that its controversial (it also says this in the Youtube trailer description). I think it had to do with the historical accuracy of the film that made it controversial. Sorry I could be wrong about most of this stuff since I am going from what I can recall.

Trailer 1


Trailer 2



Edit:

Here's a 5 minute clip from the movie I just found showing Genghis' battle with Jamuka which shows some strategy being used by him. I'm not sure how historically accurate the use of arrows as signals are though. I know the Mongol army used banners, instruments, and things like smoke signals for communicating orders but I don't think I've heard of arrows being used.

Double Edit
http://youtube.com/p...ultDOThereDOTws
I just found the whole movie on youtube but its all in mongolian/russian dubbed. Which sucks because I understand neither

[JiG]

Actually speaking, it's a grand movie in terms of scene and investment, but it totally deviate the real nomadic war tactics and it's natural life. It's my personal opinion.

Well all mainstream history movies are mostly like that.

[Suren911]

I heard (I think from another thread on this forum) of this new movie coming out called "Mongol" directed by a Russian and done in the Mongolian language. I don't know too much about it but I heard its centered around Genghis Khan and its sort of a love story. Judging from the trailer you can see what looks to be Genghis' wife Borte being abducted by the Merkits, so I'm guessing maybe it centers around that or at least plays a part in the movie. I heard the actor who plays Genghis is Japanese. From the trailers it looks good, but I also heard that its controversial (it also says this in the Youtube trailer description). I think it had to do with the historical accuracy of the film that made it controversial. Sorry I could be wrong about most of this stuff since I am going from what I can recall.
Here's a 5 minute clip from the movie I just found showing Genghis' battle with Jamuka which shows some strategy being used by him. I'm not sure how historically accurate the use of arrows as signals are though. I know the Mongol army used banners, instruments, and things like smoke signals for communicating orders but I don't think I've heard of arrows being used.
I just found the whole movie on youtube but its all in mongolian/russian dubbed. Which sucks because I understand neither

That's pretty cool that you have such good knowledge on Genghis Khan down to the characters in his life and whatnot. Impressive!

The movie looks pretty good but eh, I wonder how much historical accuracy are in there. And the Khan is played by a Japanese guy? C'mon...

I saw a really good series about Genghis Khan in China. The whole thing was filed in Mongolia and and all of the caste were Mongols and Turks with a few Chinese characters. Filmed by an Inner Mongolian company. Khan was played by Basen, a Mongol actor. It was possibly one of the best I've seen. I think they have the English subtitled ones out now.

[Yang Zongbao]

That's pretty cool that you have such good knowledge on Genghis Khan down to the characters in his life and whatnot. Impressive!

The movie looks pretty good but eh, I wonder how much historical accuracy are in there. And the Khan is played by a Japanese guy? C'mon...

I saw a really good series about Genghis Khan in China. The whole thing was filed in Mongolia and and all of the caste were Mongols and Turks with a few Chinese characters. Filmed by an Inner Mongolian company. Khan was played by Basen, a Mongol actor. It was possibly one of the best I've seen. I think they have the English subtitled ones out now.

I actually rented that series; I think that the Singapore Squad in CHF had a meeting to watch it too. It was quite good, and I thought they deserved special commendations for the actors they picked, and the pretty good costumes and props (that didn't just evoke the feeling of whatever the director or designer thought was "northern barbarian"), and I thought it captured steppe life well.

My only gripe with the series was that it seemed to bog down around the attack on Khwarzm, like they had to lengthen it to fill a quota or something, but it was great nonetheless.

But yeah, these days, moviemakers aren't so concerned about picking actors and actresses who ethnically fit. There was Memoirs of a Geisha...that raised a great smell too. And don't even get me STARTED on history channel's choice of Caucasian actors and actresses for the Mongols (maybe they were just lazy, but I couldn't help but get the feeling that they were subtly playing up on the "GENGHIS KHAN WAS ARYAN" myth). The actor for Genghis was portrayed doing some strange ritual, and his build was....chunky, looking like his idea of exercise was golf on the weekends, rather than riding and shooting for a living.

Though it's history channel, their dramatizations aren't usually incredibly accurate, unless it's occidental.

[polar_zen]

- Spartans became tough fighters just for GLORY. They live in mild climate of midterranean, surrounding states were peaceful city states. Only Spartans themselves created their own artifical selection of their own children at birth/ intentional harsh threatment on their children in order to make them tough fighters. So negative effect of Spartan tradition is self destructive/ disappearance of Nation of Sparta. IT IS UNNATURAL

----------------------
regarding homosexuality:- There is no folk tale or legend or historical documents about homosexuality among Mongols. But as we read about history of Mongols, we notice influence of other civilizations as it was on late Yuan Dynasty corrupted rulers, which were under influence lamas of tantric Buddhist.

Even todays Mongolian language, word homosexuality does not exist. There is a word GAZH DONTON -refers homosexuality as abnormally addicted

Yes, warfare with surrounding city states, the Persians, Trojans, and Macedonians doesn't count as harsh. The lives of the ancient Greeks were anything but peaceful. Sure there were long periods of peace, but they were always followed by war and conquest. The climate in Greece is not mild either. It is very hot. I am Greek I think I would know. The Spartans were a warrior society. Everything they did revolved around war. The surrounding states kept them in check, however.

Regarding your comment on homosexuality...I wouldn't expect there to be any documents or folk tales on it after all, it is generally not accepted. However that doesn't mean that it did not exist. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Finally, your last sentence is contradictory. First you say there is no word for homosexuality, and then you go on to say that word... I don't know what you're trying to say.