[polar_zen]

There is always talk of the Hanfu revival and how it was proposed as the official dress of the Beijing Olympic games, but what about the the Manchu hairstyle of having the braid? I remember seeing a Chinese-American magician on tv with that hairstyle on a few months ago.

So...should it be brought back as a cultural symbol of China?

[General_Zhaoyun]

The Hair Queue (pigtail) is a manchu custom hairstyle. Many of the Han-chinese finds it rather ugly to have a pigtail. Personally, I don't want to revive it. I would rather see a more modern westernized hair-style that give us a more modern look.

[polar_zen]

I know it is a Manchu hair custom, but Han Chinese also wore it for hundreds of years, albeit initially forced to. I think it eventually became integrated into Han culture anyway after hundreds of years of wearing it.

This post has been edited by polar_zen: 12 September 2007 - 10:31 PM

[General_Zhaoyun]

polar_zen, on Sep 13 2007, 11:28 AM, said:

I know it is a Manchu hair custom, but Han Chinese also wore it for hundreds of years, albeit initially forced to. I think it eventually became integrated into Han culture anyway after hundreds of years of wearing it.

Polar Zen,

You might not be awared that pigtails might represent some form of 'humiliation' to the chinese.

Although the Manchu pigtail is part of chinese culture, the chinese pigtail was often used as a form of "mockery" against the chinese by western power during the 19th century (you can check some of the sinophobia racist 'chinese mockery paintings' depicted by the west) .


An example of a sinophobia racist cartoon (chinese mockery) during the 19th century US.

In his book Ti-ping tien-kwoh; the history of the Ti-ping revolution, including a narrative of the author's personal adventures (a book about Taiping Rebellion), the british military officer Augustus Frederick Lindley once made a mockery statement using the chinese pigtails saying that "for many years, the whole of Europe regards the chinese as the most peculiar and weirdest people: their shavings, their pigtails, their slanted eyes, clothings and foot bndings. For a long period, it gives much theme for many humorous comics."

There was a relatively long period of history when westerners still stereotype the chinese as having 'pigtails'.

Since 'pigtails' was used a form of mockery/discrimination by the west against the chinese during the 19th century, after the founding of ROC in early 20th century, there was a movement to cut the pigtails to 'wash away the humiliation'. Even up to today, many chinese still see pigtails (no doubt chinese cultural product) as a somewhat negative stereotype mockery of the west towards the chinese).

That's probably the reason why many chinese do not wish to see this pigtail customs
being revived.

[polar_zen]

I understand that. I have learned about how the Chinese have been discriminated against throughout America's history. At one point, all Chinese were banned from entering the country. I am an American and although I have Chinese ancestry, from my looks you may not know it because I have Greek and Filipino blood as well. Regardless, I live in a part of America where there are not too many foreigners and so I've been made fun of and such, being called a "rice picker" or people tell me to go back to China "where I belong" even though I was born and raised in the U.S.

My point is that it I don't think it should matter what the Westerners think. I know that in today's Global Society, cultures must be aware of their image to other countries, but to be honest I'm sick and tired of all the bowing to Westerners and trying to fit the Western man's idea of what you should and shouldn't be. I see it in Africa, apparently in China, and especially in the Philippines. If there should be any humiliation it should be on the part of Europe and America who should be ashamed of their ignorance towards Chinese...or really any culture.

Back to the topic. Although it is understandable that many Chinese do not like the braid of hair (technically not a pigtail), I think that considering it is such a big part of Chinese culture, it should find it's way into some sort of representation among other aspects of Chinese dress... Maybe during festivals or something, people can wear wigs like Bruce Lee does in Fearless so people don't have to actually shave their heads or something. Just for cultural events of course. I am not talking about everyday life, because that would be ridiculous.

[Kimchee]

I actually put that I don't care. And I don't mean that in a negative way... what I mean is if someone wishes to wear their hair that way, great, if they want to wear a traditional Western cut, fine. It's up to them, not me.

But, polar zen, I'm sorry to hear that you've been the brunt of racist remarks. Please keep in mind that not all of us white folks think that way... just the ignorant, boorish ones. They just want to think that they're superior by putting you down... just like the caricature that GZ posted. The western press was trying to belittle Chinese to make themselves seem superior.

Keep your head up, although it's not fun to deal with the constant taunting, it'll make you stronger (honest)... you're better than them anyway.

Edit: By the way, you might ask how I know this? In certain places where I've lived, Italians were treated differently, Italian women have some sort of reputation that I was unaware of until that point in time, and I've been dating Asian men... We've actually been turned away from a restaurant or two.. comments... stares and such. It's not nice.

Kimchee

This post has been edited by Kimchee: 13 September 2007 - 04:43 PM

[Zorigo]

General_Zhaoyun, on Sep 13 2007, 12:12 AM, said:

Polar Zen,
You might not be awared that pigtails might represent some form of 'humiliation' to the chinese.

Although the Manchu pigtail is part of chinese culture, the chinese pigtail was often used as a form of "mockery" against the chinese by western power during the 19th century

This is why it should revive in order to show that being chinese no longer a humilation ( to defy that negative image.)
or Manchus ethnics should revive their very own tradition.

This post has been edited by Zorigo: 13 September 2007 - 06:34 PM

[polar_zen]

Kimchee, on Sep 13 2007, 05:38 PM, said:

But, polar zen, I'm sorry to hear that you've been the brunt of racist remarks. Please keep in mind that not all of us white folks think that way... just the ignorant, boorish ones. They just want to think that they're superior by putting you down... just like the caricature that GZ posted. The western press was trying to belittle Chinese to make themselves seem superior.

Hey thanks, although it was many years ago, not any more. But of course you're right not all white people are like that. Not say otherwise is to endup just like them.

[Hoa Phau]

Id rather wear a Mao cap than to have a pigtail!

[Chen06]

Maybe the Manchus can but I dont think the Han Chinese should. It was afterall a forced style, a source of humiliation and defeat for the Han Chinese. Its not like the queue is a big part of Chinese culture at all anyway. Though I am not sure how long the Manchus have been wearing their hair that way, the Han Chinese only worn during the Qing dynasty when they were forced by the Manchurian Queue order. Before that, Han Chinese wore their hair in topknots- for thousands of years. If anything, they should revive the Han topknot and not the queue- unless of course your Manchu, then go ahead and revive the queue.

[Prince of the South]

The queue is a manchu custom. For the han, maybe just keep the hair long.

I am not particularly enthusiastic, however, people in the hair products industry might be happy.

It has been documented that long hair, especially the Manchu queue, can be very burdensome to wear. imagine tie a load and wear it everywhere you go. can be exhausting. Usually the queue is wore long, so it nor like spotting a pony tail. methinks.

[peepee]

Prince of the South, on Oct 22 2008, 04:54 PM, said:

It has been documented that long hair, especially the Manchu queue, can be very burdensome to wear. imagine tie a load and wear it everywhere you go. can be exhausting. Usually the queue is wore long, so it nor like spotting a pony tail. methinks.

Agree ... it's ugly and not suitable in modern daily life anyways.Cosplay maybe not as acustom renewal.

[kaiselin]

Quote

It has been documented that long hair, especially the Manchu queue, can be very burdensome to wear. imagine tie a load and wear it everywhere you go. can be exhausting. Usually the queue is wore long, so it nor like spotting a pony tail. methinks.

On this I can speak, I have had my hair so long that I could sit on it. I did not have the extra burden of having to shave my forehead, but the combing and braiding was a chore. and that was nothing to the problems when it was loose. It takes forever to wash and dry. If you braid it up too wet it will mildew in the summer. It is heavy to constantly wear. a ponytail is out of the question( but a great face-lift LOL )
It is hard to sleep with. It you are a restless sleeper it will wrap around your neck strangling you. Other people sit or lay on it if you are sitting /sleeping in close quarters. It gets caught in doors, falls into the toilet, the oven or into anything else that may be in front of you when you lean over. If you turn quickly it will whip around and smack some innocent bystander.
And as a mother who allowed her daughter to grow it from birth. It was a daily choir to comb and braid it too. Her braid went down to her calves... and remember braiding shortens the length.

I like having my hair long, but there is a point that it becomes more of a burden then an ease.

I just have grown it long enough to wear in a french braid again after having it cut off short to remove all the old dyed hair, and it is now my natural multicolored hair.. chestnut brown, sable, mousy brown, reddish strawberry blond and now, lots of grey. I am going to see how long I can grow it again simply so that I will have a swatch to use if I ever need to have to make a wig. Hopefully that will never be needed.

This post has been edited by kaiselin: 22 October 2008 - 07:27 PM

[oldbreadstinks]

ditto ^

plus i honestly find it ugly for guys to have that kind of hair. personally it would be a step backwards if we were to bring back a hairstyle which is so uncomfortable and ugly(to me) in the name of preserving culture not to mention i can't even connect to it.

[Prince of the South]

kaiselin, on Oct 23 2008, 11:15 AM, said:

On this I can speak, I have had my hair so long that I could sit on it. I did not have the extra burden of having to shave my forehead, but the combing and braiding was a chore. and that was nothing to the problems when it was loose. It takes forever to wash and dry. If you braid it up too wet it will mildew in the summer. It is heavy to constantly wear. a ponytail is out of the question( but a great face-lift LOL )
It is hard to sleep with. It you are a restless sleeper it will wrap around your neck strangling you. Other people sit or lay on it if you are sitting /sleeping in close quarters. It gets caught in doors, falls into the toilet, the oven or into anything else that may be in front of you when you lean over. If you turn quickly it will whip around and smack some innocent bystander.
And as a mother who allowed her daughter to grow it from birth. It was a daily choir to comb and braid it too. Her braid went down to her calves... and remember braiding shortens the length.

I like having my hair long, but there is a point that it becomes more of a burden then an ease.

I just have grown it long enough to wear in a french braid again after having it cut off short to remove all the old dyed hair, and it is now my natural multicolored hair.. chestnut brown, sable, mousy brown, reddish strawberry blond and now, lots of grey. I am going to see how long I can grow it again simply so that I will have a swatch to use if I ever need to have to make a wig. Hopefully that will never be needed.

It really is, i am not speaking as if i wear a queue but i did have shoulder length hair before (for a guy) and it was not easy to maintain it.

Can you just imagine the Qing people did not have the luxury of the myriad hair products we have now, how did they maintain their queue? Did they wash it frequently? i think not. What if it rained and was soaking wet? Just also imagine if you see someone with short hair unkempt, how about one who spot a queue having a bad hair day?

Anyone know how the Qing people care for their queue? Did they put some ointment or something on the queue?

But obviously, for the sake of argument, if you do want a queue these days, be reassured there will be hair products out there to upkeep your hair and be spared the difficulties (well not totally but it would be alleviated) of the Qing people of age bygone.

This post has been edited by Prince of the South: 27 October 2008 - 05:07 PM