13 replies to this topic

[The Stoic]

1.) What else did ancient Chinese strategists study?

2.) What else does the PLA currently study?

[penpen]

1.) What else did ancient Chinese strategists study?

2.) What else does the PLA currently study?

1.at first,what else?what what else?
what the ancient Chinese strategist study for there whole life is how to make the people be happy and make sure that there is no enemy around them .even if there is a enemy stand there,ancient Chinese strategists will have a think about that how to make them to be friendly.that is why china have so many friend country . more firend , more helps you could get when a real war brokeout.finaly,peace will become important to each country.war is just the stupid way.
2.pla study how to make more profit to each army group,and also so the soldier's homes may get more better lifes than before.the daily trainings are also be very important to them. they blieve that they must have a better doing even if they don't have a better equipment or weapon.and also with the openning of china these years,armis get more money to improve thier weapons.and the most important point is that they also know that they are the fighters for protacting the peaple .you could say that nowthime the chinese officer also get the same jobs ----------"every thing for peace"to the ancient Chinese strategist

[Master Ghost Valley]

[quote name='The Stoic' date='Nov 1 2007, 10:36 AM' post='4909684']
1.) What else did ancient Chinese strategists study?


From Gen. Griffiths Art of War:

"Perregrinations devoted to te promotion of pacific and ethical objectives were a waste of time. The most pressssing problems were those of practical statecraft: of internal administration and foreign policy. The crucial aspects of the latter then the same as they have always been :

To preserve and enrich the the state and enhance its power and influence at the expense of enemies either actual or potential."

To assist the state in these goals, Strategist were employed who provided advice on the conduct of diplomany and warfare. Many strategist studied other strategist. One of whom was Master Ghost Valley (Kuei Ku-Tzu ) who it is said ran a school for that very purpose. And as may be seen right here , there are still those that study the works of Kuei Ku-Tzu.

Gen. Griffiths also said:

"Consequently, while moralists may frequently have been unemployed, strategist on the whole lived comfortably--so long as their advice turned out to be good."


I might add, .....there is a big difference in the way we would like things to be and the way they are.

Edited by Master Ghost Valley, 02 November 2007 - 08:21 AM.

[fireball]

I think ancient strategists also studied how other strategists handled each situation as well as the current famous people and politics around them. I have no idea what PLA studies nowadays.

[Master Ghost Valley]

[quote name='Master Ghost Valley' date='Nov 2 2007, 07:58 AM' post='4909774']


Many strategist studied other strategist, if they could. However, to find a place study was not easy because all strategist kept their methods very secret.

The Warring States period introduced the " General Staff Concept " including a special unit at the very highest level staffed with strategist. Because up to date information about the enemy was critical, extensive spy networks were employed to support the strategist with this secret information and to keep them aware of current events (who decimated who, how, when, where, what's left, who is weak, who is strong, who is easy pickings, who must we watch out for, what alliances can help us, which might we best break, how can we sow seeds of distrust in the alliances of our enemies ? )

The point is to study strategy a student must have access to masters in strategy, Except for a few isolated places like Ghost Valley, the only place with a corps of strategist was the General staff of the various armies......and the only people welcome there were the subordinates to the established strategists, and their main function was to produce for the state and not to teach students. The prevailing practice was "There are to Kinds of strategist, ours and theirs , we know who ours are,and theirs is everybody else....to ours we give every possible assistance to, and against theirs we apply every scheme of blackest treachery under heaven.

Dennis & Ching Ping Bloodworth in the " The Chinese Machiavelli" relate that Su Ch'in and Chang I were "among the most formidable" pupils in the school founded by Master Ghost Valley.
They also tell us Su Ch'in and Chang I, whose minds dueled each other all across China in the second half of the forth century masterminded the forming of the " horizontal and the vertical alliances." But to gain entrance to such schools as the one in Ghost Valley was all but impossible for the ordinary would be strategist.

To study to be a strategist, one had to have a very special talent, have that talent be recognized, come from a background suitable to the upper intellectual and social level of the master, All of these and more were assets not given to most.

It has been said "To find a place where on can study to be a strategist, one must be a strategist."

The afore presented comments are simply my opinions. other commentators may have opinions that differ.

Edited by Master Ghost Valley, 03 November 2007 - 03:14 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I'm sure that all strategic analysts in the world have read about Clausewitz(Mao himself read Clausewitz) and Mahan. Other than that, the PLA also studies Mao's doctrine of people's war.

Edited by warhead, 04 November 2007 - 12:12 AM.

[fireball]

Many strategist studied other strategist, if they could. However, to find a place study was not easy because all strategist kept their methods very secret.

Actually, the scholars (strategists) had access to history. Many of the famous battles on the battle field as well as in courts were in the history. A young strategist would have studied those examples to try to figure out how others did things in different circumstances. For example, Su Qing (warring states strategist) and Han Xin (Han general) did not follow famous masters. They just studied classic literatures and other written historical materials they could lay their hands on in order to get to their own way of strategies. Not every one in ancient time could find a good master, especially the poor guys.

[fcharton]

Actually, Su Qin is said to have been, together with Zhang Yi, Sun Bin and others, a student of Guiguzi (here is the beginning of his biography in the Shiji 蘇 秦 者 ， 東 周 雒 陽 人 也 。 東 事 師 於 齊 ， 而 習 之 於 鬼 谷 先 生 。). But note that the existence of Guiguzi (and the authenticity of his work) is very controversial.

As for modern PLA, I saw yesterday a recent edition by the Zhonghua Shuju of a modern (and apparently very good) commentary of the Sunzi Bingfa, by the PLA strategic research institute. So apparently, the ancient masters are still studied and researched by the Chinese military.

Francois

[fireball]

Actually, Su Qin is said to have been, together with Zhang Yi, Sun Bin and others, a student of Guiguzi (here is the beginning of his biography in the Shiji 蘇 秦 者 ， 東 周 雒 陽 人 也 。 東 事 師 於 齊 ， 而 習 之 於 鬼 谷 先 生 。). But note that the existence of Guiguzi (and the authenticity of his work) is very controversial.

Yes, I just remembered that after I waked up this morning. I was thinking of the time he came home after his failed at getting a position as a strategist the first time(after he came back from studying with 鬼谷先生). He stayed home and studied hard. Then, he went out again to try to get a position as the strategist. This time, he succeeded.

[fcharton]

Yes, I just remembered that after I waked up this morning. I was thinking of the time he came home after his failed at getting a position as a strategist the first time(after he came back from studying with 鬼谷先生). He stayed home and studied hard. Then, he went out again to try to get a position as the strategist. This time, he succeeded.

Yes, the Shiji states he found and studied a book called Yinfu (陰符), which happens to be the name of the last chapter of the received version of the Guiguzi (although no one could say for certain whether it was the book Su Qin is supposed to have studied, or whether it was named in honour of this story).

Later retellings of the story (eg the Dong Zhou Lieguozhi) expand a lot on this "magical book", and the later story becomes very similar to a similar one at the beginning of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

Francois

[The Stoic]

Well this does exchange does present very interesting notions to it.

Does anyone know of any other english language resources that could explicate more on the GuGuizi, Su Qin, etc? I already possess Thomas Cleary's translation, but i'm not so well versed in this topic and am hoping to learn a bit more.

[fcharton]

Hi, Stoic,

Background on the histories of Su Qin and Zhang Yi (you need to read about both), and the alliances they created against or on behalf of Qin, can be found in any history book on the era. So probably the chapters on Warring States in the Cambridge History of China (or any other general history book which deals with the Warring States) will tell you a lot about them.

There are two sources for their histories, both written/compiled during the Western Han (ie a couple of century later).

1- the Shiji (records of the Historian), where Su Qin and Zhang Yi both have their biographies (chapters 69 and 70). They can easily be found in english translations, by Nienhauser et al, and by Yang & Yang (HK and Foreign Language press). I am not certain Burton Watson did those two chapters, you might want to check.
2- the Zhanguoce (stratagems/intrigues of the warring states) has several stories pertaining to them, which partly duplicate with those of the Shiji (both works were most certainly compiled from the same sources), I know there is an old translation of it into english, which you might want to look for in libraries. Modern chinese editions of the Zhanguoce also include a slightly earlier (but still Western Han) version of a number of chapters (sometimes called the "Mawangdui Zhanguoce", by the name of the place where it was found), which mostly include passages on Su Qin and Zhang Yi. This might have been translated in academic journals.

There is an ongoing (and slow going) project of translating bits and pieces of the Shiji and Zhanguoce here on CHF, so if you can't find anything, you might want to check in a couple of years if any of those chapters have been done (I have a rough version of the first quarter of the Su Qin chapter, if you want, just email me and I'll send it to you...)

On Guiguzi, he is not mentioned much in history books because his mere existence is questionable. He is named in several places as a famous teacher, and has a book named after him, but that's pretty much all we know.The authenticity of his book was long subject to controversy (partly because it is written in a very unusual style, partly because it is never mentioned in official histories before the Sui, ie very very late).

Cleary's translation is the most easily found (it is pretty good, imho), I know there are a few others (I'm waiting for MGV, our resident expert on Guiguzi) to intervene. I have posted a translation of the first chapter on CHF (and on my blog, the adress of which is on my profile).

Francois

[Master Ghost Valley]

Hi, Stoic,

Background on the histories of Su Qin and Zhang Yi (you need to read about both), and the alliances they created against or on behalf of Qin, can be found in any history book on the era. So probably the chapters on Warring States in the Cambridge History of China (or any other general history book which deals with the Warring States) will tell you a lot about them.

There are two sources for their histories, both written/compiled during the Western Han (ie a couple of century later).

1- the Shiji (records of the Historian), where Su Qin and Zhang Yi both have their biographies (chapters 69 and 70). They can easily be found in english translations, by Nienhauser et al, and by Yang & Yang (HK and Foreign Language press). I am not certain Burton Watson did those two chapters, you might want to check.
2- the Zhanguoce (stratagems/intrigues of the warring states) has several stories pertaining to them, which partly duplicate with those of the Shiji (both works were most certainly compiled from the same sources), I know there is an old translation of it into english, which you might want to look for in libraries. Modern chinese editions of the Zhanguoce also include a slightly earlier (but still Western Han) version of a number of chapters (sometimes called the "Mawangdui Zhanguoce", by the name of the place where it was found), which mostly include passages on Su Qin and Zhang Yi. This might have been translated in academic journals.

There is an ongoing (and slow going) project of translating bits and pieces of the Shiji and Zhanguoce here on CHF, so if you can't find anything, you might want to check in a couple of years if any of those chapters have been done (I have a rough version of the first quarter of the Su Qin chapter, if you want, just email me and I'll send it to you...)

On Guiguzi, he is not mentioned much in history books because his mere existence is questionable. He is named in several places as a famous teacher, and has a book named after him, but that's pretty much all we know.The authenticity of his book was long subject to controversy (partly because it is written in a very unusual style, partly because it is never mentioned in official histories before the Sui, ie very very late).

Cleary's translation is the most easily found (it is pretty good, imho), I know there are a few others (I'm waiting for MGV, our resident expert on Guiguzi) to intervene. I have posted a translation of the first chapter on CHF (and on my blog, the adress of which is on my profile).

Francois

Greetings Francois and Stoic,

Cleary is indeed the best place to start. Before one reads chapter “OPENING AND CLOSING” (pages 3 thru 8), read the notes on pages 77, 78 & 79. Because one will find the material is written in sort of a code. Without the notes, the material may be very much of a puzzle. There were some passages that did not make very much sense to me until, in desperation, I began to compare Cleary”s with the corresponding passages from three, yes three, doctoral dissertations. So do not be discouraged.

“The Chinese Machiavelli” by Dennis & Ching Ping Bloodworth on pages 53, 54 and 55 are the pages that long ago introduced me to MGV. They are worth reading.
Quote: Kuei Ku tzu was a Taoist mystic, a recluse who lived in solitude beside a deep limpid stream in a remote fold of the Central Plain called Ghost Valley.

Ralph D. Sawyer’s “Tao of Deception” has material on MGV on pages 325 and 326 and refers to a Kuei-ku tzu society devoted to the study of his work.

Also, Sawyer says : “ In fact, despite lacking a known military text or any historical traces , Kuie-ku tzu, the “ Master of Ghost Valley.” has now become the most widely portrayed of legendary strategists.”

As a long time MGV devotee, I am happy to ask : Why has this taken so long?

There is a disagreement among the MGV scholar community as to who actually wrote the book Guiguzi, a man using the name? Or a team of his disciples? Or even an alleged disciple? There is no doubt that the work has been edited, changed, divided, expanded and otherwise altered time and again. It is said that very little was written about the man himself until a thousand years after his death.

MGV is associated with a school of thought called Tsung-heng who were persuader –philosophers. From the very start both MGV and the Tsung-heng were considered treacherous troublemakers, lower than “snakes and rats” lacking in morals and further no self respecting classical scholar should even read them. However, the Tsung-heng school is a good place to search for the posture advocated by MGL.

Hope this information will be helpful.

MGL

[CARDINAL009]

1.) What else did ancient Chinese strategists study?2.) What else does the PLA currently study?

This Cardinal are in awe of the greatness of Francis and MGV, great true blue strategic viewpoints. Since this Cardinal was never in the military, he will attempt not to use military terms.

///
My suggestions: 百戰奇略 (Baizhan Qilue, or "The Unique Strategies of 100 Warfare" aka 100 Unorthodox Strategies [Sawyer's translation]);

三十六計 (Sanshi Liuji, or "36 strategies")鬼谷子 (Gui Gu Zi, or "Master of Ghost Valley") and 陰符 (Yin Fu). Those two books are good read if one consciously knows what to look for.

孫子注 (Sunzi Zhu, or "the explanation of Sun Tzu")

Always been a big fan of Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings (五輪書, Go Rin No Sho[sup]

Wish you well in your pursuit of the truth.

I might add, .....there is a big difference in the way we would like things to be and the way they are.

If your plan is not Tangible from a top down viewpoint and flexible from a ground up view, it is not going to work.

///

Many strategist studied other strategist, if they could. However, to find a place study was not easy because all strategist kept their methods very secret.

The Warring States period introduced the " General Staff Concept " including a special unit at the very highest level staffed with strategist. Because up to date information about the enemy was critical, extensive spy networks were employed to support the strategist with this secret information and to keep them aware of current events (who decimated who, how, when, where, what's left, who is weak, who is strong, who is easy pickings, who must we watch out for, what alliances can help us, which might we best break, how can we sow seeds of distrust in the alliances of our enemies ? )

The point is to study strategy a student must have access to masters in strategy, Except for a few isolated places like Ghost Valley, the only place with a corps of strategist was the General staff of the various armies......and the only people welcome there were the subordinates to the established strategists, and their main function was to produce for the state and not to teach students. The prevailing practice was "There are TWO Kinds of strategist, ours and theirs , we know who ours are,and theirs is everybody else....to ours we give every possible assistance to, and against theirs we apply every scheme of blackest treachery under heaven.

Dennis & Ching Ping Bloodworth in the " The Chinese Machiavelli" relate that Su Ch'in and Chang I were "among the most formidable" pupils in the school founded by Master Ghost Valley.

They also tell us Su Ch'in and Chang I, whose minds dueled each other all across China in the second half of the forth century masterminded the forming of the " horizontal and the vertical alliances." But to gain entrance to such schools as the one in Ghost Valley was all but impossible for the ordinary would be strategist.

To study to be a strategist, one had to have a very special talent, have that talent be recognized, come from a background suitable to the upper intellectual and social level of the master, All of these and more were assets not given to most.

It has been said "To find a place where ONE can study to be a strategist, one must be a strategist."

The afore presented comments are simply my opinions. other commentators may have opinions that differ.

There are amateurs and professionals.

The amateurs are those who uses quotes like a fairy uses a wand. They want to be the professional. But they do not have the conscious intent and the drive to be the professional. In some cases, they unconsciously interrupt the workflow of the professional.

The professionals are those who has a Tangible View of what the big picture is for that seasonal cycle and completes it before the cyclical wave begins to decline. He always focuses on the tide not the waves.

///

Actually, the scholars (strategists) had access to history. Many of the famous battles on the battle field as well as in courts were in the history. A young strategist would have studied those examples to try to figure out how others did things in different circumstances. For example, Su Qing (warring states strategist) and Han Xin (Han general) did not follow famous masters. They just studied classic literatures and other written historical materials they could lay their hands on in order to get to their own way of strategies. Not every one in ancient time could find a good master, especially the poor guys.

It is an unforgiving world. Securing knowledge depends greatly on the following factors:

• what social class one is at;
  
• what resources does one have access at;
  
• how intelligent he/she is;
  
• how consciously aware he/she is;
  
• how driven he/she is willing to learn;
  
• whether the mentor is willing to teach; and
  
• whether the mentor can teach.

Understand strategy is not about reading books on history 24/7.

It is about securing experience incrementally through applications of tactical SoP at different competitive settings while having a consulting mentor over his/her shoulders.

The web may provide an open forum. Everyone gets the free knowledge. It is the professionals that has the know-how. The Know-How does have a cost.

There are tricks of trade that can accelerate one's learning. But is it worth the professional's time to teach the newbie? Or do the newbie consiciously willing to take the time to learn it and master it properly?

Amateur teachers offer milk to the newbies while the professional teacher serve fine wine. There is a price to pay when one decides to buy milk not the wine.

Is the newbie willing to dedicate the time and money to learn?


///

Actually, Su Qin is said to have been, together with Zhang Yi, Sun Bin and others, a student of Guiguzi (here is the beginning of his biography in the Shiji 蘇 秦 者 ， 東 周 雒 陽 人 也 。 東 事 師 於 齊 ， 而 習 之 於 鬼 谷 先 生 。). But note that the existence of Guiguzi (and the authenticity of his work) is very controversial.

As for modern PLA, I saw yesterday a recent edition by the Zhonghua Shuju of a modern (and apparently very good) commentary of the Sunzi Bingfa, by the PLA strategic research institute. So apparently, the ancient masters are still studied and researched by the Chinese military.

Francois

It does not matter if the students (whoever they are) are studying the many different translations. If they do not get the Tangible View of the big picture, all of the tactical processes doesn't matter.

If they are "checklist" type of learners, they are never ever going to understand the essence of Sz AoW.
Sorry, there is no "Sunzi for Dummies" book in this global neighborhood. Hmmmm. --- Maybe there is.

If one is grooming to be a field level expeditor (a tasker) or a field level manager, Sz's AOW is the preferred way to go.

[ Sidebar" This Cardinal complies with what the professionals are reading (Ames and Sawyer). Some parts of Cleary interpretation is slightly questionable. That is just "The Cardinal view". ]

But if he is focusing on being a grand strategic advisor (consultant) or a senior manager, the books to read are: JTG, Wuzi and a few unmentioned books

If one is the boss (the CEO), read JTG, Wuzi and some positive motivation books.

///

Yes, I just remembered that after I waked up this morning. I was thinking of the time he came home after his failed at getting a position as a strategist the first time(after he came back from studying with 鬼谷先生). He stayed home and studied hard. Then, he went out again to try to get a position as the strategist. This time, he succeeded.

Having the proper strategic mentor and/or technical mentors is the grand key.


///

MGV is associated with a school of thought called Tsung-heng who were persuader –philosophers. From the very start both MGV and the Tsung-heng were considered treacherous troublemakers, lower than "snakes and rats" lacking in morals and further no self respecting classical scholar should even read them. However, the Tsung-heng school is a good place to search for the posture advocated by MGL.

Hope this information will be helpful.

MGL

One key to a part of the MGV essay is "that the clients wants to be briefed on the outcome or the current status of the outcome, not the approach to doing it. "

When this Cardinal first gotten in the consulting profession, he was reminded by an elder colleague of the following. "You are a professional. Do whatever it takes to get the fr--kin' job. ... If not, your butt will be more roasted than a Chinese roasted pig. ..."

After that meeting, fear became the motivator for that moment. But the job was completed precisely, properly and promptly.

///

It has been an entertaining thread. Good luck to the newbies in your pursuit of the truth.

Am sure most of you are those true blue strategy professionals that can develop at a drop of a gold coin and implement it before the crack of dawn. Miles ahead of this Cardinal.

In terms of mastering the fundamentals from these many super classics, this Cardinal has many miles to go before he sleeps.

///

Edited by CARDINAL009, 07 November 2007 - 10:31 PM.