28 replies to this topic

[light]

At the end of Qing dynasty, Cixi attempted to abolish imperial exams and confucanism and replace it with the western exams. But it was all talk and no real action. It was only abolished when the republic was set up.

Do you think it was possible to contine to retain confucanism and the imperial exams when the republic was set up? Was it really necessary to abolish the imperial exams?

[fireball]

At the end of Qing dynasty, Cixi attempted to abolish imperial exams and confucanism and replace it with the western exams. But it was all talk and no real action. It was only abolished when the republic was set up.

Do you think it was possible to contine to retain confucanism and the imperial exams when the republic was set up? Was it really necessary to abolish the imperial exams?

It was necessary to get rid of the imperial exams. Too many scholars spent too much time on subjects that could not help the country. When people are starving to death and foreign armies are at the door, the old imperial exams are useless. Not only the scholars need to know the Chinese Classics, they also need to write the essays in the specific style and had excellent hand writings. Many of these scholars had no common sense and had no ideas of how to be a good government officials or even useful human beings. Some of them had trouble to understand the meanings in the Chinese Classics because they just need to memorize them. Just read some of the late Qing dynasty novels regarding the social ills, you can find many of these examples.

When the new westernized examinations (高等考試, 普通考試) for the government positions were installed, they did not get rid of Confucianism. The tests included Chinese, Geography, Math, English, and many other subjects that were more relevant to the modern world. The Chinese portion of the test also required people to know the Chinese Classics and able to write good essays and good writing styles. However, the score from the Chinese test was only part of the whole scores, so the people who take the tests must be well rounded in the areas they were testing for. When you passed the exams, you could be appointed in various government levels or had the credentials to be in professional jobs, like lawyers, etc. I am describing the situation around the time of early republic era and also the regulations in Taiwan in the past (before 1980's). I am not sure what are the current situation in mainland China or Taiwan.

[polar_zen]

Well, the Chinese are known to be excellent test takers.

[light]

The imperial exams and confucanism could help the rulers rule china for more than 2000 years.

So why was it necessary to eliminate the imperial exams in the 19th century?

[fireball]

The imperial exams and confucanism could help the rulers rule china for more than 2000 years.

So why was it necessary to eliminate the imperial exams in the 19th century?

The imperial exams were not used for more than 2000 years. You should not tie the Confucianism with the imperial exams because Confucianism was still around after the cancellation of the imperial exams.

I am not quite sure the exact methods of Qin and pre-Qin eras for becoming government officials. However, in the beginning of the Chinese history, if you are not one of the nobles or from the noble families, you wouldn't be in the government. In the later part of Eastern Zhou dynasty (Sprint and Autumn and Warring States periods), some people who were not nobles could become government officials if they got the Dukes and Kings to like them. In the Han , Wei, and Jing dynasties, it was more about having a good name in your hometown area and had someone recommend you to the government. However, the people who are recommended were generally officials' own family members, so no exams or minimun exams were really involved. The Imperial exams were really not there.

Only until Sui dynasty, the imperial exams started. In the Tang dynasty, the imperial exams were like the modern day westernized examinations (高等考試, 普通考試) and had tests on math, laws, and sciences. In the Song dynasty, it had essays to discuss the contemporary issues and solutions. In Yuan dynasty, there were only 10 imperial exams and only a little over 1000 people passed. All of them were not considered important at all in the Yuan dynasty government.

The imperial exams you talked about were from the Ming dynasty and ended at Qing dynasty. They were used by both Ming and Qing rulers to enslave the Chinese scholars so that they would waste their time and efforts on the Classics and had no energies to rebel against the Emperor. These imperial exams only lasted about 540 some years, and it hurt not helped the rulers to rule China. It certainly caused China to become one of the weakest countries in the world in the 19th and early 20th centries. It was 540 years too late to throw it into the trash can!

Edited by fireball, 13 November 2007 - 10:03 PM.

[light]

The imperial exams you talked about were from the Ming dynasty and ended at Qing dynasty. They were used by both Ming and Qing rulers to enslave the Chinese scholars so that they would waste their time and efforts on the Classics and had no energies to rebel against the Emperor. These imperial exams only lasted about 540 some years, and it hurt not helped the rulers to rule China. It certainly caused China to become one of the weakest countries in the world in the 19th and early 20th centries. It was 540 years too late to throw it into the trash can!

Hmm. But the imperial exams helped Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong to create a Kang Qian Sheng Shi

[fireball]

Hmm. But the imperial exams helped Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong to create a Kang Qian Sheng Shi

The Kang Qian Sheng Shi had no connections with the imperial exams. It had more to do with Kang Shi, Yong Zhen, and Qian Long's abilities to pick the better people among the ones who passed the exams. Even then, the shortsightedness of these officials caused many problems during and after the Kang Qian Sheng Shi. Comparing to Tang Taizong's Zhen Guan Zhi Zhi, Kang Qian Sheng Shi had no comparisons.

[light]

It had more to do with Kang Shi, Yong Zhen, and Qian Long's abilities to pick the better people among the ones who passed the exams. Even then, the shortsightedness of these officials caused many problems during and after the Kang Qian Sheng Shi. Comparing to Tang Taizong's Zhen Guan Zhi Zhi, Kang Qian Sheng Shi had no comparisons.

True. But Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong did a much better job than today so call republic government of china. which is supposed to be a better form of government but is still plauged by mass corruption and poverty among its people.

From 1912 till now 2007 almost 1 century, the majority of the people of china are still living in proverity whereas Kangxi took less than 60 years to create a Sheng Shi and by the 100th year of the Kang Qian Sheng Shi China was enjoying great prosperity under Qianlong reign which I think the republic government will never be capable of achieving the same results even if we give them a few hundred years to do so.

[snowybeagle]

Confucianism was adopted as state policy during Han Dynasty, while the Imperial Exams open to all candidates irrespective of social background was introduced during Sui-Tang era. Historically, the exams only started AD 605.

The exams were only abolished in 1905, not 19th century. It was only announced as abolished during the failed 100 days reform, but reinstated after Cixi's coup.

If Confucianism and the exams were to be given credit for successful governing of China during imperial times, then they should also bear responsibility for failures and catastrophes for the same period.

The comparison to performance of Republican government is not consistent in several points.

First, KangXi inherited the empire which was largely stable from ShunZhi, securely in control of most of the territories except the 3 tributaries in the south. The Qing had established themselves for nearly two decades.

In contrast, the Republican government never securely established themselves in China right from the beginning of their existence.

Second, the Republican government (more correctly termed Nationalist government) did not govern China from 1912 until 2007. The Nationalist government only continued in Taiwan after 1949, and Taiwan did become prosperous. From 1949 until today, China, where most people are still poor, is governed by the CCP.

[fireball]

True. But Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong did a much better job than today so call republic government of china. which is supposed to be a better form of government but is still plauged by mass corruption and poverty among its people.

From 1912 till now 2007 almost 1 century, the majority of the people of china are still living in proverity whereas Kangxi took less than 60 years to create a Sheng Shi and by the 100th year of the Kang Qian Sheng Shi China was enjoying great prosperity under Qianlong reign which I think the republic government will never be capable of achieving the same results even if we give them a few hundred years to do so.

There are and were corruption and poverty in any countries and any time period of the world including the Qiang-Kang shen shi and today's U.S. Do you think the children of some of the current and ex-Presidents and Senators of U.S. are all geniuses? A lot of them got hired by major companies for high-paying jobs (like >$100,000 or $200,000 per year jobs) That was another way to bribe their daddies. In the Qiang-Kang shen shi, there were at least 2 major officials who had corrupted a ton of money -- Nalan Mingzhu under Kangxi and He Shen under Qianglong. The type of corruptions they had committed were in much greater scales than the officials in the republic governments on both shores of China sea.

The republic governments (both Nationalist government and the Communist government) inherited the mess from the Qing government. We had spent the last hundred years to correct the Qing dynasty mess, and we probably need even longer time to get rid of the twisted mindsets that were installed and caused by the Qing government. Hopefully, with the spread of real education and wealth, China will get rid of the shadows of the Qing dynasty and become a truely great country in the 21th century.

[Ashura]

True. But Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong did a much better job than today so call republic government of china. which is supposed to be a better form of government but is still plauged by mass corruption and poverty among its people.

First you need to prove there is a real connection between imperial exam and good governance. Then you need to prove that mid-Qing is really better then today's Chinese governments. History itself has put holes in the first hypothesis already; how do you explain the fall of the Qing empire while the imperial exam was still intact? For your second hypothesis, empirical data will show that while average GDP might or might not equal to the highest level of Qing (average GDP is not a good standard anyway), living standard and CPP have already exceeded that of Qing.

From 1912 till now 2007 almost 1 century, the majority of the people of china are still living in proverity whereas Kangxi took less than 60 years to create a Sheng Shi and by the 100th year of the Kang Qian Sheng Shi China was enjoying great prosperity under Qianlong reign which I think the republic government will never be capable of achieving the same results even if we give them a few hundred years to do so.

First of all Qing created a huge mess in China during its reign. Between 1900 to 2007 there were numbers of major wars going on, while there were only 2 major and large scale wars before and during Kangxi's reign, and both of which were not on par with the wars in the 20th cen. in scale. Keep in mind that it was a much easier time too, where there was no industrialization, miminal pollution, simple market, lack of social mobility, plenty of lands and resources, relatively manageable size of population etc.

About the "same results", of course they can't be achieved, even if you dig up Kangxi's grave, reanimate him and put him in charge, he still couldn't give you the same "Sheng Shi" you have in your mind (of course his reign was far from being good governance in modern standard). Can he govern a modern society? Hell no, this guy has no concept of rule of law, property rights, public sanitation, welfare, human rights, commericalism, modern diplomacy, economics, science, constitutionalism, etc. Tme has changed, and lives moved on. For all matters and purposes, both PCR and Taiwan gov'ts have exams for civil servants, yet they still fail to filter out many incompetent people. How do you expect an outdated imperial exam which tests nothing at all can improve governance competency?

Btw, how do you measure a "Sheng Shi", is it a "Sheng Shi" just because the history books say so or is it based upon empirical evidence? Unless you provide us some measurements, "Sheng Shi" is a rather meaningless term. Should we compare Han "Sheng Shi" with Tang "Sheng Shi"? or German industrial power with the hayday of Holy Roman Empire?

Another question for you, should we ride horses instead of automobiles to get rid of traffic congestions? There were no traffic jams when people were ridding horses after all. I think we all know the answer.

Edited by Ashura, 16 November 2007 - 04:34 AM.

[fireball]

What twisted mindsets are you refering to

Let me see:

1. Willing to blindly follow a leader whether this leader is good or bad.
2. Willing to be enslaved by someone powerful without fighting.
3. Willing to step on someone who is weak or poor or powerless.
4. Believing money and power is everything, and one could use any methods to obtain the money and power.
5. Believing betraying one’s principle is Ok as long as one gets what he wants.
6. Willing to be corrupted if given a chance – as in going for the back doors, using guang xi to get around regulations, giving favors to one’s own relatives and friends, etc.
7. Having the inferiority complex due to the defeats in the wars with the foreigners and blindly believing all things Chinese are bad and all things Western are good – I have met current day mainland Chinese and Taiwan Chinese like that!
8. Having the superiority complex caused by the inferiority complex due to the cause of #7 and deciding to close one’s eyes totally from China’s problems and thinking “wishing one is great” would mean “one is truly great in reality”.
9. Trying to sweep all problems under the rugs and cover them up because we will lose face in front of foreigners.
10. Blind anger toward the other countries and other people in the world because China had suffered foreigners’ oppression due to Qing’s weakness.

There are other twisted mentalities that are mixed in with these 10. To describe them all would require a book.

Do you think the children of some of the current and ex-Presidents and Senators of U.S. are all geniuses? A lot of them got hired by major companies for high-paying jobs (like >$100,000 or $200,000 per year jobs) That was another way to bribe their daddies.

what has this got to do with corruption.

Current presidents of u.s are chosen by the people If they are corruped, why will the people chose them to be presidents

The corruption problem faced by U.S is definetly much better than china

What’s your point?

My point was clear in my description: The companies bribe U.S. Presidents and Senators by hiring their children who are not capable and paying them a lot of money. Which part of this that does not involve corruption?

People would choose anyone who sounded good to them and who promised them the things they want to be their leaders. It doesn’t matter whether they are Americans, Germans, or Chinese. It’s like people chose Hitler in Germany for their leader before WWII. Did the Germans and the German Jews know he was a bad man before they chose him? Of course not! If they did, they wouldn’t choose him.

The corruption problem faced by U.S. might be better than the ones faced by China at this time because U.S. does have a lot of laws and regulations in this matter. However, haven’t you heard of the Chinese expression of “the person who ran for 50 steps laughed at the person who ran for 100 steps”? Corruption is corruption, and there is no difference IMO. When a nation’s people do not seek to improve their own government and their own culture, the nation would only go down hill from there.

[Ashura]

Of course Kangxi don't know about law, property rights, public sanitation etc. But he can be taught! Do you know how about law, property rghts, public sanitation when you were born? Heck no. You were taught in school and in society before you knew all these knowledge.

Kangxi reign was a sheng shi because it is a golden era in culture and the arts. China's modern day boundaries are attributed to the territorial gains that Kangxi made. Its economy was good and the people had jobs and lead a peaceful life. Even the west at that time look up to china at that time.

Funny that was exactly my point that you cannot compare history to today, and you just went completely right thru it.

Let's go back to the assumption that you can reanimate him, and when you do he would be a grown man who was used to be in chrage and being right as he was surrounded by yes-men. That means he would have his own ideas, and why should he listen to you? Even modern politicians do not necessary listen to you, why should he? Consider youserlf lucky if he didn't turn you into his eunch the moment he woke up from dead.

Kangxi reign was a sheng shi because it is a golden era in culture and the arts

You said nothing at all. My original post asked "how" golden it was, and you provided no measurements. And golden as comparing to what? By the measure of literacy, modern day China is by far the golden age of all era. By the measure of ethnic identity, which is one of the major definition of civilization and culture, more people in China today, in proportion, would agree that they are Chinese than people during Kangxi's reign. Reason being at that time people in mainland China at least were divided by 2 labels, Manchu and Han, let alone that there were also Mongolian, Tibetian and other minor labels. Note that I was not saying these labels do not exist anymore. The point is that right now we have a better defined and stronger identity. As for arts, well nobody really considers Qing art the highest point of Chinese culture. Tang, Song, even Yuan surpassed Qing's achievement, especially Song. Was there any major technological breakthrough in Qing? There were plenty in Song.

Economy was good, I won't dispute that. But how good? Economy is good today. Take HK for example, its ecomnoy, depends on measurement, surpasses Qing's easily, does that mean HK's economy is golden?

People had jobs? So are people today. By people you mean who and how many, and by jobs you mean which type? Do you have measure? Being a peasant is not really a job you know. A job today is a process of actively seek an offering while considering the opportunity cost, and then you made a choice of whether taking it or not. Being a peasant in those day was by default, which means it didn't have a lot of opportunities for people and that people couldn't move around to improve economic effeciency. By the way, didn't a lot of peasants lost their "jobs" due to corruption, force eviction and so on? Qing dynasty had a policy of barring Han people to cultivate the North-East. Good economic practice?

A peaceful time? Hardly. During Kangxi's reign there was 1 large scale of war involving the whole country, lots of other minor wars, and lots of jailings due to something that someone wrote. Hight time of culture and art you said? Of course I will not dispute the fact that those wars were a good thing to the empire, but fact was it wasn't a peaceful time.

The West looked up to China. Yes, they did, in a way, to a China they knew nothing about. Did they, however, follow any custom of Qing?

Again, my original point was not to disput whether Kangxi's reign was a "Sheng Shi", my point was that unless you come up with a measurement thay allow us comparison between Kangxi's wolrd and today's, "Sheng Shi" means nothing. Nonetheless, depending on evidence, people can still debate whether Kangxi was a "Sheng Shi" or not.

Edited by Ashura, 16 November 2007 - 07:23 AM.