15 replies to this topic

[fcharton]

Hi,

Yes, 人之初 性本善 性相近 習相遠 苟不教 性乃遷 教之道 貴以專, that three character classic... I was wondering if someone here could point me to good modern editions, and commentaries (I know there were several Qing dynasties commentaries) on the work... So far, everything I found (in chinese and translation) was very simple and childish.

Anyone?

François

[fireball]

So far, everything I found (in chinese and translation) was very simple and childish.

How childish? Could you give an example? It was a children's book after all, so I assume everyone translated it straight and in the simple words and stories the book used. I am a bit doubtful that people (as in commentators and translators) would spend too much time on this because it was really not considered a great literary work. The ones I saw nowadays in Chinese were also pretty simple and childish. I will try to look for it the next time I go to my Chinese bookstore.

[snowybeagle]

Mon ami, I think you might do better translating it yourself ...

I'm not sure if it's me, but I found English translations by Herbert Giles terribly lacking.

I thought he could do a lot better than
养不教， To feed without teaching,
父之过。 is the father's fault.
教不严， To teach without severity,
师之惰。 is the teacher's laziness.
子不学， If the child does not learn,
非所宜。 this is not as it should be.
幼不学， If he does not learn while young,
老何为。 what will he be when old?

Not sure what you think of Deverge's French translation here:
Elever un enfant sans lui donner de l'instruction
est la faute du père.
Donner de l'instruction sans faire preuve de sévérité
est la faute du professeur.
Un enfant qui n'étudie pas
voilà qui ne doit pas exister !
S'il n'étudie pas dans la prime enfance
que deviendra-t-il dans la vieillesse ?

Personally, I'd prefer
养不教， To raise without teaching,
父之过。 is the father's fault.
教不严， To teach without discipline,
师之惰。 is the teacher's laziness.
子不学， If the child does not study,
非所宜。 it is not acceptable. * this part is not easy to translate as the meaning is rather ambiguous *
幼不学， If he does not learn while young,
老何为。 what can he do when old?

[fcharton]

How childish? Could you give an example? It was a children's book after all, so I assume everyone translated it straight and in the simple words and stories the book used. I am a bit doubtful that people (as in commentators and translators) would spend too much time on this because it was really not considered a great literary work. The ones I saw nowadays in Chinese were also pretty simple and childish. I will try to look for it the next time I go to my Chinese bookstore.

I think I read somewhere there actually are commentaries of the Sanzijing. The work is packed with cultural references, some very simple, some more complex, and contains a number of quotes (eg the beginning includes a quote from the Lunyu). Also, the original text was completed in various ways over several centuries, which means notes on the editions might be useful.

As for the translations, the few ones I have seen (in modern chinese and in english) are not very good (one of them, I'll edit the references later, being real bad!). I think it is a pity, because the sanzijing, even though it might have been targetted for children, is a good and useful work.

Mon ami, I think you might do better translating it yourself ...

Well, that's pretty much what I have in mind... that's why I'm looking for good editions... 不亦宜乎?

Speaking of which... I think 宜 in 非所宜 translates into english as 'fitting' or 'proper', or even 'correct'... So, something like : "no educating one's son, this is not proper, if they do not learn while they are young, what will become of them when they are old" ?

Francois

Edited by fcharton, 14 November 2007 - 10:03 AM.

[fireball]

Speaking of which... I think 宜 in 非所宜 translates into english as 'fitting' or 'proper', or even 'correct'... So, something like : "no educating one's son, this is not proper, if they do not learn while they are young, what will become of them when they are old" ?

I think that is right. That's how I understand it.

[fcharton]

Not sure what you think of Deverge's French translation here:
Elever un enfant sans lui donner de l'instruction
est la faute du père.
Donner de l'instruction sans faire preuve de sévérité
est la faute du professeur.
Un enfant qui n'étudie pas
voilà qui ne doit pas exister !
S'il n'étudie pas dans la prime enfance
que deviendra-t-il dans la vieillesse ?

Personally, I'd prefer
养不教， To raise without teaching,
父之过。 is the father's fault.
教不严， To teach without discipline,
师之惰。 is the teacher's laziness.
子不学， If the child does not study,
非所宜。 it is not acceptable. * this part is not easy to translate as the meaning is rather ambiguous *
幼不学， If he does not learn while young,
老何为。 what can he do when old?

Deverge is not bad, he misses the 严, which he translates with the same word as 过. And 非所宜 as "this should not exist" is not perfect, but the meaning is fine.

I like yours, here's an attempt, in French...

养不教， Eléver sans éduquer,
父之过。 C'est la faute d'un père.
教不严， Eduquer sans réprimander,
师之惰。 La paresse d'un maître.
子不学， Un fils qui n'étudie pas,
非所宜。 Voila qui ne convient pas.
幼不学， Si enfant il n'étudie,
老何为。 Comment fera-t-il, plus tard?

François

[kaiselin]

Francois,
I would be very interested in seeing this done in a bilingual translation. It might help beginners learn to read Chinese no mater whether they are young or old.

[fcharton]

I would be very interested in seeing this done in a bilingual translation. It might help beginners learn to read Chinese no mater whether they are young or old.

Hehe, I'd love to do this when I have time (the difficult part being looking up all the interesting references which the Sanzijing has). Maybe one day...

But there already are bilingual editions of the Sanzijing.
Here is an online one (trilingual in fact, english translation Giles) http://www.afpc.asso...amp;l=Sanzijing
and another http://www.yellowbri.../sanzijing.html
and another one I don't really like http://raptor.depauw.edu/sanzijing/

And a list of many book translations... http://hua.umf.maine...jingbiblio.html

I have the one by ST Phen, published by EPB, it is pretty good, especially with respect to the notes. Try to avoid the ones recently published in the PRC, they tend to be bad... (I have one here which is embarassing : I'll post examples if someone is interested).


About learning chinese, this was the first text we were given when studying classical chinese in university. Another member of the forum, a teacher of chinese, told me he used it on his students too...

Of course, the three character metre doesn't allow for much grammar, but it is an excellent introduction to the only kind of chinese you'll ever want to learn: Classical chinese


Francois

Edited by fcharton, 04 December 2007 - 08:57 PM.

[kaiselin]

Hehe, I'd love to do this when I have time (the difficult part being looking up all the interesting references which the Sanzijing has). Maybe one day...

But there already are bilingual editions of the Sanzijing.
Here is an online one (trilingual in fact, english translation Giles) http://www.afpc.asso...amp;l=Sanzijing
and another http://www.yellowbri.../sanzijing.html
and another one I don't really like http://raptor.depauw.edu/sanzijing/

And a list of many book translations... http://hua.umf.maine...jingbiblio.html

I have the one by ST Phen, published by EPB, it is pretty good, especially with respect to the notes. Try to avoid the ones recently published in the PRC, they tend to be bad... (I have one here which is embarassing : I'll post examples if someone is interested).


About learning chinese, this was the first text we were given when studying classical chinese in university. Another member of the forum, a teacher of chinese, told me he used it on his students too...

Of course, the three character metre doesn't allow for much grammar, but it is an excellent introduction to the only kind of chinese you'll ever want to learn: Classical chinese


Francois

Is this the beginning classic that was taught in school that used 1000 different characters, each never repeated , to teach the children the characters and meanings?
I have that somewhere in my files, but have never spent the time to study it yet.....

[fcharton]

Is this the beginning classic that was taught in school that used 1000 different characters, each never repeated , to teach the children the characters and meanings?
I have that somewhere in my files, but have never spent the time to study it yet.....

No, that would be the "thousand character essay"...

The three character classic was also taught to young students, more as an introduction to chinese culture. Some have called it a "Confucian catechism"...

In my opinion it is the better of the two

[kaiselin]

No, that would be the "thousand character essay"...

The three character classic was also taught to young students, more as an introduction to chinese culture. Some have called it a "Confucian catechism"...

In my opinion it is the better of the two

Thanks Francois,
I will check out those sites.

[fcharton]

Ok, for Kaiselin, a little bit of the Sanzijing, the part on history, until the Song. Pinyin, vocabulary, cheap translation, and a few notes...

经 子 通 ， 读 诸 史。
jīng zi3 tōng dú zhū shi3
Classics Masters Grasped , Read many historians
Once the classics and the philosophers are known, study the many historians

考 世 系 ， 知 终 始。
kao3 shì xì zhī zhōng shi3
Study generation succession, know end beginning
Explore the succession of generations, know their end and their beginning

自 羲 农 ， 至 黄 帝。
zì xī nóng zhì huáng dì
From (Fu)Xi (Shen)Nong, to Yellow Emperor
From Fuxi and Shennong to the Yellow Emperor

号 三 皇 ， 居 上 世。
hào sān huáng jū shàng shì
Called three augusts, live ancient generation
They are called the three augusts, who lives in the most ancient times

唐 有 虞 ， 号 二 帝。
táng you3 yú hào èr dì
Tang and Yu, called two sovereigns
Tang Yao and Yu Shun are called the two sovereigns
(Note: you don't get three Augusts and five Sovereigns here…)

相 揖 逊 ， 称 盛 世。
xiāng yī xùn chēng shèng shì
Mutually refuse yield, named plentiful generation
They mutually ceded (the throne), this was called the golden age.

夏 有 禹 ， 商 有 汤。
xià you3 yu3 shāng you3 tāng
Xia have Yu, Shang have Tang
The Xia had Yu the Shang had Tang.

周 文 武 ， 称 三 王。
zhōu wén wu3 chēng sān wáng
Zhou Wen Wu, named three kings
Zhou have Wen and Wu, these are called the three royal dynasties.
(moderners call them sandai, 三代, but Sanwang is the norm in classics)

夏 传 子 ， 家 天 下。
xià chuán zi3 jiā tiān xià
Xia transmit son, family heaven under
The Xia passed the throne to their sons, and made the world their family

四 百 载 ， 迁 夏 社。
sì bai3 zai3 qiān xià shè
Four hundred years, exile Xia soil-altar
After four hundred years, their soil altars were sent away.

汤 伐 夏 ， 国 号 商。
tāng fá xià guó hào shāng
Tang attack Xia, state called Shang
Tang (the victorious) attacked the Xia, his state was called Shang.

六 百 载 ， 至 纣 亡。
liù bai3 zai3 zhì zhòu wáng
Six hundred years, reach Zhou perish
After six hundred years, it arrived at the tyrant Zhou, and was destroyed.

周 武 王 ， 始 诛 纣。
zhōu wu3 wáng shi3 zhū zhòu
Zhou Wu King, first kill Zhou
King Wu of Zhou first destroyed Zhou the Tyrant

八 百 载 ， 最 长 久。
bā bai3 zai3 zuì cháng jiu3
Eight hundred years, most long lasting.
With eight hundred years, this dynasty last longest.

周 辙 东 ， 王 纲 坠。
zhōu zhé dōng wáng gāng zhuì
Zhou ruts east, king bonds break
After the Zhou moved eastwards, the royal principle fell down

逞 干 戈 ， 尚 游 说。
Chěng gān gē shàng yóu shuì
Brag shield halberd, employ travelling persuaders
People displayed their shields and halberd, and hired travelling persuaders

始 春 秋 ， 终 战 国。
shi3 chūn qiū zhōng zhàn guó
First Spring Autumn, end War state
First were the Springs and Autumns, then came the Warring States

五 霸 强 ， 七 雄 出。
wu3 bà qiáng qī xióng chū
Five hegemons strong, seven braves come out
Five hegemons became strong, and seven braves appeared.

嬴 秦 氏 ， 始 兼 并。
yíng qín shì shi3 jiān bìng
Ying Qin family, first unite annex
Ying, the ruling family of Qin, was the first to annex and unite

传 二 世 ， 楚 汉 争。
chuán èr shì chu3 hàn zhēng
Transmit Ershi, Chu Han fight
He passed his throne to the Second Emperor, Chu and Han fought each other

高 祖 兴 ， 汉 业 建。
gāo zu3 xīng hàn yè jiàn
Gaozu rise, Han heritage establish
Gaozu rose, and established the Han legacy

至 孝 平 ， 王 莽 篡。
zhì xiào ping wáng mang3 cuàn
Reach Xiaoping, Wang Mang usurp
Once it reached Xiaoping, Wang Mang usurped

光 武 兴 ， 为 东 汉。
guāng wu3 xīng wéi dōng hàn
Guang Wu rise, make east Han
Guanwu rose and established the eastern Han.

四 百 年 ， 终 于 献。
sì bai3 nián zhōng yú xiàn
Four hundred year, end in Xian
It last four hundred years and ended with emperor Xian.

魏 蜀 吴 ， 争 汉 鼎。
wèi shu3 wú zhēng hàn dǐng
Wei Shu Wu, fight Han tripods
Wei Shu and Wu fought for the tripods of the Han.

号 三 国 ， 迄 两 晋。
hào sān guó qì liang3 jìn
Call three states, until two Jin
They are called the three kingdoms and last until the two Jin.

宋 齐 继 ， 梁 陈 承。
song qí jì liáng chén chéng
Song Qi succeed, Liang Chen inherited
Song and Qi succeeded them, and Liang and Chen inherited their thrones

为 南 朝 ， 都 金 陵。
wéi nán cháo dū jīn ling
Make south dynasty, capital Jinling
They make up the southern dynasties, which had their capital in Jinling
(note: modern Nankin)

北 元 魏 ， 分 东 西。
běi yuán wèi fēn dōng xi
North Yuan Wei, split east west
In the north, was the Yuan Wei, which split into east and west Wei
(Yuan is the clan name of the rulers)

宇 文 周 ， 与 高 齐。
yu3 wén zhōu yu3 gāo qí
Yuwen Zhou, and Gao Qi
The Yuwen Zhou, and the Gao Qi
(same here Yuwen and Gao are the surnames of the ruling families, yes the age of fragmentation is fragmented…)

迨 至 隋 ， 一 土 宇。
dài zhì suí yì tu3 yu3
Until reach Sui, one land roof
Then came the Sui, who united all lands under one house

不 再 传 ， 失 统 绪。
bú zài chuan shī tong3 xù
Not twice transmit, lose succession thread
But before the rules passed twice, they had lost the course

唐 高 祖 ， 起 义 师。
táng gāo zu3 qi3 yì shī
Tang Gaozu, raise righteous army
Tang Gaozu rose a righteous army

除 隋 乱 ， 创 国 基。
chú suí luàn chuàng guó jī
Remove Sui disorder, establish state base
He put an end to the chaos of the Sui, and established the bases of a state.

二 十 传 ， 三 百 载。
èr shí chuán sān bai3 zai3
Two ten transmit, three hundred years.
After twenty rulers, and three hundred years

梁 灭 之 ， 国 乃 改。
liáng miè zhī guó nai3 gai3
Liang destroy it, state then change
The Liang destroyed them, and the state was transformed.

梁 唐 晋 ， 及 汉 周。
liáng táng jìn jí hàn zhōu
Liang, Tang, Jin, arrive han Zhou
The (posterior) Liang, Tang and Jin, and then the posterior Han and Zhou

称 五 代 ， 皆 有 由。
chēng wu3 dài jiē you3 yóu
Call five dynasties, all have cause
Those are called the five dynasties, which all rose and fell for good reasons

炎 宋 兴 ， 受 周 禅。
yán sòng xīng shòu zhōu shàn
Fiery Song rise, receive Zhou heritage
The fiery Song rose, and inherited the Zhou

十 八 传 ， 南 北 混。
shí bā chuán nán běi hùn
ten eight transmit, south north confuse
After eighteen generations, the south and north were in chaos


Here you go, 3000 years (or maybe 4000?) in one short passage. Who said chinese history is complicated ?

Now, recite this every morning and evening before the meals...

Francois

Edited by fcharton, 05 December 2007 - 05:21 PM.

[MichaelCHang]

It should be childish, because it was originally intended for children.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Refer also to these two threads (history & info) on this chinese kid's literature:

http://www.chinahist...showtopic=14821
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=5688

[Tang Scholar]

For those who read Spanish, there is the
Sanzijing - el clásico de Tres caracteres

Translated with an introduction and notes by Daniel Ibáñez Gómez. A bilingual edition.
Madrid: Editorial Trotta, 2000
Here is a sample of some verses already discussed in this thread:

养不教， Criar sin educación,
父之过。 error del progenitor.
教不严， Educar sin severidad,
师之惰。 pereza del profesor.
子不学， Que los niños no estudien,
非所宜。 es muy contraproducente.
幼不学， Si de pequeños no estudian,
老何为。 ¿para qué servirán de mayores?