18 replies to this topic

[Mei Houwang]

If I had to choose my money would be on Qin Zhuang Xiang, although the idea that Lu was the real father is entertaining, but not very likely. It's a possibility, but a very minor one. We must remember that introducing a non-virgin(not to mention pregnant) woman to the King would have very grave and severe punishments. But again maybe Lu Buwei would like the idea of having a son of his own on the throne, even if it's not by name. Since the latter is much more entertaining, it would only be natural for the media to express this instead of the former.

[fcharton]

Recently, many historians are arguing over the real identity of Qin Shi Huang. Is his father Lu Buwei or Qin Zhuang Xiang wang? In books, the answer remains a mystery but in television shows, it is usually Lu Buwei. Zhao Ji (Qin Shi Huang's mother) was with both of them (Lu Buwei and Qin Zhuang Xiang wang) but since DNA could not be tested last time, the answer remains a mystery. I guess this will be a mystery forever.

The idea that Qin Shihuang is illegitimate is very old. In fact, the main source for this theory (and, in fact, the main source for all stories about this era) is Sima Qian.

Here's the passage from the Lu Buwei chapter (other chapters on Qin Shihuang, do not have this story, neither does, I think, the Zhanguoce)

呂 不 韋 取 邯鄲 諸 姬 絕 好 善 舞 者 與 居 ， 知 有 身 。 子 楚 從 不 韋 飲 ， 見 而 說 之 ， 因 起 為 壽 ， 請 之 。 呂 不韋 怒 ， 念業 已 破 家 為 子 楚 ， 欲 以 釣 奇 ， 乃 遂 獻 其 姬 。 姬 自 匿 有 身 ， 至 大 期 時 ， 生 子 政 。 子 楚 遂 立 姬 為夫 人 。

Lü Buwei had, among his concubines in Handan, a very beautiful and gracious dancer. He lived with her, and knew she was expecting. One day, as Zichu had followed Lü Buwei to a banquet, he saw her and admired her. As she rose to wish him a long life, Zichu asked for her. Lü Buwei was incensed, but he pondered that he had already ruined his house on behalf of Zichu, in order to capture a rare thing. So he offered her his concubine, who hid her pregnancy. After a long time, she gave birth to a son named Zheng. Zichu then made the concubine his first spouse.

(A complete translation of the chapter can be found here : http://www.chinahist...showtopic=14716)

Personally, I would doubt the Lu Buwei chapter: its rather odd style suggest that it has been edited a lot, and it is full of extravagant anecdotes, sometimes bordering on the grotesque... But I understand that filmmakers would love it. It has a great cast : the crafty merchant, the exotic dancer (who incidentally is named Zhao, so she might actually be a princess in disguise...), the weak Qin prince who serves as a hostage, and then, the false eunuch...

Francois

[Bao Pu]

Professors John Knoblock and Jeffrey Riegel say that the story of Lü being the father are "patently false, meant both to libel Lü and to cast aspersions on the Fisrt Emperor." (LSCQ p. 9)

[fireball]

I feel it was most likely not Lu Buwei. It was highly unlikely to give a confirmed pregnant woman to a prince and not have suspicion fall on the child. 1. The woman probably will have the morning sickness at the first few months of pregnancy, and it would be very hard for her to cover it up. 2. If a child was born even only a little over one month of short of the proper time of the pregnancy, his paternity would be suspect. Then, it would be very hard for him to be the crown prince and the next king of Qin. 3. If Zhao Ji was pregnant around the time when both Lu and the Qin prince were both with her, how could anyone know who was the father?

In addition, even if Lu Buwei was the father, how did the public know this fact that even Sima Qian know about the story several hundred years later?

[Wei Chong]

I think, that's inposible. If Lu Buwei really is the father of Qin Shi Huang, then how come King Zhuangxiang did'nt realise it? however, in TV shows, it is really very interesting to made Lu Buwei the father of Qin Shi Huang. it makes the show more interesting.

[fireball]

I think, that's inposible. If Lu Buwei really is the father of Qin Shi Huang, then how come King Zhuangxiang did'nt realise it? however, in TV shows, it is really very interesting to made Lu Buwei the father of Qin Shi Huang. it makes the show more interesting.

It also made Shi Ji more interesting. I guess everyone loves gossip magazines, including the ancient Chinese!

[Bao Pu]

I think, that's inposible. If Lu Buwei really is the father of Qin Shi Huang, then how come King Zhuangxiang did'nt realise it?

Maybe she wasn't showing yet.

[Shogun 144]

Actually this is a pretty interesting subject. Sima Qian certainly had a talent for bringing such interesting matters to light for us, centuries later, to ponder.

But I digress. On the matter at hand I think that in all probability Lu Buwei was not the biological father of Ying Zheng, Qin Shi Huang. I must agree with Francois, there is something very odd about the chapter on Lu Buwei in the Shiji. I can't really say for sure why but I doubt the validity of the chapter, which is also odd. I also wonder if the one we have now is the original that the Grand Historian wrote. It seems too artificial, but maybe that is a product of the translation process. Food for thought hmm?....

Anyway in my personal opinion that while there is a possibility that Lu Buwei did have some role in the meeting of Ying Zichu and Lady Zhao it was no more then this, if I even dare go that far. Ying Zheng was Zichu's son, of that I am convinced. More probable then not this whole business started as a result of the traditional disdain of the Confucian gentry that rose to power during the Han for Qin Shi Huang. I wouldn't put it below them to call the paternity of the First Emperor into question. From there it is just a short hop to doubting his sanity, and we know the Confucian gentry did that! But I wander.... Sorry.

Anyway that is my cents.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

This is definitely a controversial issue as we will never arrive to a positive answer due to the lack of information presented to us.

The only thing we could be certain about this topic is that Zhao Ji had been Lu Buwei’s concubine before being officially married to Qin Zhuang Xiang Wang. With this in mind, Zhao Ji herself might not even have been aware of her own son’s paternity. However, there are three clues pointing towards Qin Shihuang being of royal blood.

1.] Qin Shihuang was born 14 months after the official marriage of his parents.

2.] If the rumors that Qin Shihuang was the actual son of Lu Buwei were truly believable at the time, then there would be rebellions everywhere in the state of Qin because of the current king’s illegitimacy. There was indeed only one minor rebellion staged by Qin Shihuang’s younger half brother and General Pan; however, it was quelled rather quickly.

3.] Fireball has a very valid point stating that how would Sima Qian have known all the minute details of the incidents in order to create a complete account in the Shi Ji?

Therefore, I think Qin Shihuang was of actual royalty; however, the rumor that he was really the son of Lu Buwei was simply a possibility, which was bolstered by TV series as the real truth behind the story.

I am normally very critical regarding how TV series distort history; however, I must admit the directors/producers did not create something so absurd this time as this was something actually recorded in the Shi Ji. We are just doubting the validity of the “original text” itself.

[ZWD]

A lot of speculation that he was sired by Lu Buwei. His mother was a former concubine of his and was pregnant with Qin Shi Huangdi when she was presented to Qin.