66 replies to this topic

[TMPikachu]

On javelins... from what I've read of the Osprey books, they mention that javelins are a sign of 'barbarian' armies, as Chinese spears were often designed for only melee use (like those dagger-axe attachments) that would make them difficult to throw, and that with crossbows, they already had a powerful piercing weapon. spear throwing miniatures discovered were figured to be representations of barbarian auxilliary soldiers.

[Liang Jieming]

On javelins... from what I've read of the Osprey books, they mention that javelins are a sign of 'barbarian' armies, as Chinese spears were often designed for only melee use (like those dagger-axe attachments) that would make them difficult to throw, and that with crossbows, they already had a powerful piercing weapon. spear throwing miniatures discovered were figured to be representations of barbarian auxilliary soldiers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hehehehe, I don't think Roman superiority supporters would be too impressed with that statement.

[Yun]

I've read somewhere that Ma Chao's mother was a Qiang, but nothing like romans.

Ma Chao's grandmother (i.e. Ma Teng's mother) was a Qiang - it's on this thread: http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=919

Actually, ran into many mainland Chinese in Italy when I was there in 2000.
I am not sure if all of them (still) got valid visas at that time.
They were mostly from WenZhou (温州), those I met were running restaurants and shoe shops.

The Wenzhou Chinese are the shrewdest businessmen in all of China - they can be found dominating industries not only around China, but around the world!

In Italy, according to an article I read last year, anti-Chinese xenophobia is growing because the Chinese have taken over so many businesses that the old shopping streets are now Chinatowns. The Italians still haven't gotten used to the idea of a multi-ethnic society.

[hansioux]

I don't think it is possible either. But that's what the theory said.

[Sephodwyrm]

For me, I think it is really pointless. So what if Ma is Roman? Does that make him any less Chinese? It seems that people are trying to say that all the famous Chinese people are not Chinese, and hence the Chinese are not fit to survive on this world...

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I don't think thats their point at all, its to imply their fantasy theory to connect Li Qian, Sogdiana and Ma Chao toghether, which is quite poor. Li Qian has alerady been recorded before Sogdiana, and Ma Chao's evidence is just a third rate poor linkage without bases.

[Daniel]

Michael Loewe writes of possible, but not likely Roman visitors to China in 120 A.D., during Han Andi's reign.

The emperor received a group of musicians, conjurers, fire-eaters, and others, numbering up to a thousand, who claimed to be from the Roman world of the Mediterranean, but probably came from Burma.

The source is the Hou Han Shu.

[TMPikachu]

I've read in a book called "The Silk Road" that those kinds of performers came out of the middle east. This was Tang times though, not Han. Both were big silk road dynasties though, so I wouldn't be suprised, and would actually expect, the Han to have first met such performers.

Claims of coming from Rome were seemingly common. The merchants could have been to Rome before but the claim was more like a way to say "Hey, Mr. Han man, want some neat Roman stuff?". Like a sales pitch, instead of actually being from Rome or representing the country.

There was a funny event recorded in that book. Some Roman traders (they claimed to be representatives of Rome, but they were just merchants) had some 'exotic' goods to impress the Chinese with. I think it was like ivories, shells, furs, that kinda thing. Exept 'exotic' in their terms, to the Chinese was "stuff already in our country". The Chinese merchant was not impressed.

And by 'Roman World'. Maybe the records just considered land far west enough 'Roman World' and assumed they came from that area?

Was Rome known for such acrobats? Maybe they tought 'Roman World' gave them a more impressive feel.

[TMPikachu]

They're well known. Chinese have luckily written down many many many precise records of the things they did.
from what I know, it was uncommon to have very large shields, most shields I've seen are a smallish size.

[Yun]

Large shields, other than the static pavises used to protect crossbowmen in the Han, only became popular in the Age of Fragmentation. At that time, to protect against charging lancers and horse-archer arrows, infantrymen would carry a long spear and a shield about as tall as their body. Before that, Han armies would emphasise more skirmishing tactics using the sword and the halberd (ji) together with smaller (roughly torso-sized) shields.

[Kenneth]

They finally screened an hour long documentary on the very topic discussed here,.
It was a poor sort of historical detective work and in the end even the most eager came up with nothing, it was called 'Romans in China'.
They had the very Ganshu town refered to here with statues of romans and even a few roman pillars put up (and plans for more) on the documentary and it really came across as a half-arsed tourist scam. A few townsfolk have non-Chinese features but so what? A phsysical anthropologist looking at a very Roman nosed looking Chinese suggested it is more likely Iranian ancestry.....this is on the silk road after all and Tang sculpture show Negroes and Persians and there are many references to muslim trader within China, and being influential during Yuan.

Anyway, it turns out there is not one real piece of evidence to link this town to Li Jien anyway...and the theory of captured romans is flawed as there is reference to Li Jien in Chinese history several years before the battle of Carrae!
This immediately means all the the fish-scale formation talk and 'what if' about the fate of Carrae Roman prisoners means nothing to the origin of this town.

In the end there was not on scrap of bone, any carved roman characters, or even an established site for Li Jien (which doesn't have to translate as 'Rome' anyway) to justify any basis to the theory.........but tourist dollars will see future Roman architecture incorporated into the town....as well as festivals were they dress up as Romans.


On a more interesting note are the Taklamahan (Xinjiang) mummies which are undeniably caucasian (even with Western stlye fabrics made from European sheep breeds) and these have been radio-caron dated by Chinese archaeologists to between 2100BC up untill 500BC showing there may well be European genetic ancestry to Chinese in the area....the last European mummies occur alongside Asian mummies so the societies seem to have merged...and with no more Europeans crossing into the area the features would eventually be incorporated into Chinese.
These dates blew me away! Even before Shang and up untill Spring & Autumn period there were European people hanging on in the harsh enviroment which freeze dried their dead. They pointed out some of the people died within the area of modern China while Troy was under siege.....their long hair and facial features have even survived on some. (others do not look so attractive)
So a Chinese with high cheek bones or wavy hair doesn't have to mean his ancestors were from these imaginary Romans.

[TMPikachu]

Thought high cheekbones were an Asian trait already.

So those mummies are that old? I guess I never knew what their date was, but didn't expect 2000+BC!

[hansioux]

Thought high cheekbones were an Asian trait already.

So those mummies are that old? I guess I never knew what their date was, but didn't expect 2000+BC!

There was discovery channel documentaries on these mummies in the USA.

If you didn't already read about the date somewhere, maybe you can catch one of those episodes. Or order it from Discovery Channel XD

Anyway, the study also proves that Caucasians and Mongols lived together. There are many tombs with husband and wife of interracial barrials.

Finally, back in 2000 BC time, that area was A LOT greener than it is today. Don't be surprised that people lived there. Even during Han dynasty that area was a lot greener than now. Just the difference in size of 羅布泊 now and then shows that area used support more than nomad life style.

[TMPikachu]

I remember that documentary, they had red hair, I believed.

Even had a nice re-eneacting of an interracial marriage.