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Roman soldiers settled in Han China?

Started by General_Zhaoyun , Jan 08 2005 07:44 PM

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#31 hansioux

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 05:57 PM

I remember that documentary, they had red hair, I believed.

Even had a nice re-eneacting of an interracial marriage.

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I think the textile found along with the body, which is almost Scottish Kilt like patterns, immediately proved that this is not just White poeple, but acutal Caucasian cultures living in the area.
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#32 Yun

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 03:09 AM

A good book to read about these mummies (and the history of the Tarim region in general is "The Tarim Mummies" by Victor Mair and JP Mallory. Quite expensive and academic in content, but one of the few places you will find colour photos of the mummies.
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Posted 27 March 2005 - 02:13 PM

Hello. I'm relatively new to Chinese history. I was wondering if anyone here could give me any insight into a famous episode in Han history. Earlier this year I came across a fascinating theory put forth by H.H. Dubs which asserts that Romans made it from Carrhae to Gansu via a Hsiung-nu city on the Dulai River in modern day Kazakhstan. I've searched through this site and found a few references to it and I was hoping some of you here might help me.

I've read all of the english publications on this theory. I obtained Dubs' book and read all of the articles he and others have published on it. I even bought and read the David Harris book "Black Horse Odyssey" which is not scholarly but provided some interesting bits of information. I got my friend and professor (who is chinese) to translate the primary sources for me (pan ku, ssuma chien, etc.) so that I might make a passable study of the originals "untainted" by partisan interpretations.

I know this theory has probably been bandied about quite a bit. I personally don't accept it, and intend to deliver a powerful broadside against the theory as my final undergraduate level research paper (I'm a history major, focusing primarily on minority populations). Any insights would be helpful.

One point that I find troubling is the policy of Wang-Mang, of "rectifying names," which involved giving a place the name that was most suited to it. Dubs shows that li-jien (the supposed Roman town) was renamed "Jie-lu" ("captives" or "caitiffs raised in storming a city") by Wang-Mang in 9 CE. Of all of Dubs' points, I find this the hardest to ignore, mostly because I know only a little about Wang-Mang and what he did. I do know he put down various uprisings and may have resettled people to the area in question, but I have nothing to back this up.
Many of the "Romans" would have been dead by this time. I calculated that the youngest a Roman soldier from Crassus' legion could be in 9 CE is roughly 82 years old (18 in 55) That's at a minimum. Out of a measly 145 men, how many were young enough to even have lived this long?

I also read somewhere that there is a record on the books for a city called li-jien existing in 60 BCE. Does anyone know anything about this?

Thanks.

#34 Yun

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 04:31 AM

Welcome to CHF, Zulu War Chant!

Most of us on CHF think Dubs' theory is half-baked, and is only interesting to Western historians because they are obsessed with any reference to early contact between Europe and China.
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Posted 28 March 2005 - 02:06 PM

Most of us on CHF think Dubs' theory is half-baked, and is only interesting to Western historians because they are obsessed with any reference to early contact between Europe and China.

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Greetings,

I wouldn't go so far as to say "half baked" on the part of Dubs, but I think many of his supporters are (see David Harris). Dubs was an intelligent man, he did an important translation of the Han Shu as well as some important work on Confucianism.

The theory is untenable though. Here are a few points:

1. The Romans defeated and captured at Carrhae ceased to be an effective fighting force. Plutarch mentions in gruesome detail how those who were not killed were maimed horribly by the barbed Parthian arrows. Dio describes the same thing. In addition, the climate was so harsh on the Romans that many simply died of exposure. Romans and Gauls don't survive very long in waterless deserts.

The testudo failed miserably at Carrhae. It might have worked well against European barbarians, but not against Parthian bows. Chinese crossbow bolts would have cut through a Roman testudo like a hot knife through butter. Any Roman survivors of Carrhae would have likely abandoned this formation, for its effectiveness was severely lessened by the realities of combat in plains and steppe. Plus, it wasn't until Antony's time that the testudo was perfected, by presenting a complete wall of shields against missile attacks.

2. The Roman captives were not sent to Margiane to "guard" the frontier against barbarian raids. Dubs distorts a passage in Pliny which reads: "This [Margiane] is the place to which the Roman prisoners taken in the disaster of Crassus were brought by Orodes" (Historia Naturalis VI 47). Pliny does not say anything about them "guarding" the border. Their position as prisoners is stressed even here. Besides, Margiane is surrounded on all sides by desert, a natural prison.

Roman shields and arms were seized by the Parthians as trophies. Plutarch mentions a triumphal parade in which the spoils of the Roman force were paraded through the streets of Seleucia. In addition to this, Roman banners and icons were taken to Parthian temples as tribute to their gods.

Plutarch also mentions that some Romans were executed after the battle. A passage mentions "Roman heads newly cut off" affixed to axes of the captured fasces during the Parthian triumphal parade. It was a 1,500 mile march across desert from Carrhae to Margiane. How many died from exposure or execution? How many were sold as slaves? The remnant that reached Margiane was a pitiful remnant of POWs, not a force of border guards. It's absurd to assume that the Parthians would utilize Romans as auxiliaries while they were at war with Rome.

3. From Margiane to Chih-chih's city on the Dulai river it is roughly 500 miles of the harshest territory on earth, the Kara kum desert. Temperatures there rise to as high as 172 degrees F. and the water of the Oxus River rises to 87 degrees. Human life during the day is almost totally dormant. Alexander the Great had trouble crossing this region, and he commanded a well-provisioned force!

That's just a few points on the western end of things.

#36 Tibet Libre

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Posted 07 July 2005 - 01:40 AM

Hm, somehow I found this theory rather believable unlike many other daring theories. Unfortunately, 150 people aren't enough a number to leave any archaeological signs. I mean, they were soldiers, not artisans or so...

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#37 thirdgumi

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Posted 08 July 2005 - 01:03 AM

Hm, somehow I found this theory rather believable unlike many other daring theories. Unfortunately, 150 people aren't enough a number to leave any archaeological signs. I mean, they were soldiers, not artisans or so...

http://www.100megsfr...es/aromchin.htm

This theory has been discussed here before, personaly, I don't think is it consistent enough.
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#38 壹貳參肆伍

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 12:08 PM

漢朝與羅馬史上的確有接觸過,詳情請讀以下:

失蹤的古羅馬第一軍團

歷史學家研究認為，普布利烏斯率領的古羅馬第一軍團，最後流亡到西域康居國（今哈薩克斯坦境內），為在此稱雄的北匈奴郅支單于所收容。據《漢書‧陳湯傳》記載：公元前36年，漢西域都護甘延壽、付校尉陳湯，率4萬將士西征匈奴郅支單于於郅支城，並「生虜百四十五，降虜千餘人」。書中記，陳湯在戰爭中發現一支奇特的僱傭軍，是由百餘名步兵組成的「夾門魚鱗陣」、盾牌方陣，土城外設置「重木城」。而這種用圓形盾牌組成魚鱗陣的進攻陣式，和在土城外修重木城的防御手段，正是當年羅馬軍隊所獨有的作戰手段。

參考資料
解開古羅馬第一軍團失踪之迷

從上文來看,兩方人數相差甚多,結果就不用提了.漢朝的軍隊較佔優勢,這是敝人的推測.

#39 Wujiang

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 08:31 PM

Read the thread onetwothreefourfive.

That myth have been debunked ages ago

And please write in english in all forums except the Chinese language forum.
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#40 壹貳參肆伍

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 01:21 AM

Read the thread onetwothreefourfive.

That myth have been debunked ages ago

And please write in english in all forums except the Chinese language forum.


我不曉得您是依據那一位學者的說法,請寫出來.

轉貼]2千年?#101;失蹤羅馬軍團 籍落中國

(樓主) 佑欣 , 2006/02/12 00:13am 西元前53年，一支羅馬軍團在卡萊爾戰爭中失敗後，突出重圍，卻沒有回到羅馬，神秘失蹤，2000多年來，神秘失蹤的古羅馬第一軍團下落一直是個謎。

據新聞晨報報導，出甘肅省永昌縣城的者來寨村西南10公里處，便到了焦家莊鄉驪靬村--人們所謂的驪靬故址所在。漢初，這裡曾設驪靬縣，屬張掖郡，唐人顏師古所校注《漢書》載，「黎靬即大秦國也，張掖驪靬縣蓋取此國為名耳。」大秦國即指古羅馬國；《後漢書補注》載，驪靬縣為「驪靬降人而置」。

驪靬城遺址屬「重木城」
在祁連雪峰之下，龍首山南側，驪靬遺址現僅存28米長，3．8米寬，1．5米高的一段殘垣，夯層在15--17厘米之間。南依祁連山(又稱南山)，西鄰焉支山(又稱大黃山)，從祁連山中發源的者來河從中流過。

在已所剩無幾的古城牆遺址上尚殘留著模糊的椽木印痕，它說明驪古城是「重木城」，而土城外加固重木的防禦方式，正是當年羅馬軍隊所獨有的作戰手段。鄰近的河灘村則出土了寫有「招安」兩字的橢圓形器物，專家認為，這可能是羅馬降兵軍帽上的頂蓋。

古書中把古羅馬稱作驪靬，西元前53年(西漢甘露元年)，古羅馬帝國執政官克拉蘇發動了對帕提亞（中國古書稱安息，今伊朗東北一帶）的掠奪戰爭，在敘利亞(古稱卡爾萊)遭到了安息士兵的重創，元帥戰死，只有克拉蘇的長子普布利烏斯所率的第一軍團約6千餘人拚死突圍，最後到達河西走廊的今日甘肅永昌縣境。

約在西元前50年至40年間（漢宣帝末至元帝初年），西漢王朝於今永昌縣境內西南設驪靬縣安置歸順的古羅馬軍人。他們依照古羅馬的風格在高昌建立城池和房屋，至今在那裡還留有遺跡。這些古羅馬軍人從西方的歷史中消失了，又在東方的國度裡繁衍生息。

考古學家的研考
上個世紀90年代起，一座本來偏僻而寧靜的小村莊，突然一下子熱鬧起來了。一批又一批的國內外遊客和專家學者湧入永昌，湧入驪靬村。這一切都是因為1989年9月30日《參考消息》轉發的一則法新社新聞：《中國西部有古羅馬城市》。

文章引用了一名澳大利亞阿德萊德大學教師戴維·哈里斯的觀點。哈里斯認為當年東征軍潰敗後一部分軍隊很有可能流落到遙遠的東方——當時正在鼎盛時期的漢王朝的版圖內——並定居下來。而這次東征比馬可·波羅的中國之行要早上至少1300年。

哈里斯經過長時間的考證，確切得知這座當年曾經用來安置羅馬東征軍的城市名叫「驪靬」。而驪靬，則是中國古代對古羅馬的稱呼。

到驪靬村的人會發現，這裡大部分人的體貌特徵已經與漢族人無異，黃皮膚、黑眼睛、黑頭髮。只有少數幾個人或有黃色的鬍鬚、頭髮，或有雪白的皮膚。據當地人說，沿著祁連山一帶，很多村莊都分佈著當年羅馬人的後裔，這些人與漢族人通婚，時至今日，具有羅馬人特x的已經很少了。

不少當地農民瞭解「羅馬軍團潰敗」的歷史，並對自己的歐洲人血統深信不疑，那些白皮膚和天生黃褐色頭髮的遺傳是無法改變的。

村民保留羅馬鬥牛風
他們的後裔在這裡還保留著不少古羅馬的習俗，當地葬俗與眾不同，他們在安葬死者時，不論地形如何，一律頭朝西方。並且，當地人對牛十分崇尚，且十分喜好鬥牛。

村民在春節時都愛用發酵的麵粉，做成牛頭形饃饃，俗稱「牛鼻子」，以作祭祀之用。放牧時，村民特別喜歡把公牛趕到一起，想方設法讓它們角鬥，而這正是古羅馬人鬥牛的遺風。

對此論點，某些史學家持相反意見，他們認為古羅馬軍團在中國的史實依據不足，且永昌位於舉世聞名的古絲綢之路上，各民族之間的關係和人群遷移及混雜的過程相當複雜，況且兩漢時期已證明羅馬人到達過洛陽。

但贊成者堅信他們的研究已無限逼近歷史真相，幾年前已有一個叫羅英的「驪」人到北京中科院遺傳所作了DNA鑒定，結果證明他有歐洲血統。

202.8.182.* 編輯 刪除 至頂


老實說,引那篇不太好,畢竟是東西學者爭論的話題之一.不過我相信漢書的可靠度.不過我現在手上沒有所謂研究羅馬失蹤軍團的書,只能引網上的資料.不過外國網站我倒是沒注意.

#41 Wujiang

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 02:06 AM

Posts moved to the relevant thread

And 壹貳參肆伍, I repeat, please use english unless in the Chinese language forum. Post large quantities of Chinese again and risk a warning.
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#42 Tibet Libre

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 04:53 AM

http://www.personal....18/li-chien.pdf

CONCLUSION:

A Roman city in ancient China is very interesting and provocative, but without
sufficient archaeological evidence, there would be no way to accept Roman Li-chien as fact. Dubs jumps to conclusions hastily and attempts to connect several events together by
using vague statements and descriptions as evidence. How could he be certain that the
“more than a hundred” soldiers seen outside the city walls were the 145 listed as being
captured alive in the report to the emperor? Dubs also fails to describe how Roman
mercenaries may have traveled five hundred miles east of Margiana past the Oxum River
into the military of Jzh-Jzh. Roman Li-chien cannot be accepted as a historical truth until
further evidence in support of Dubs is brought to light, but right now it is nothing more
than an interesting theory.


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Posted 03 February 2007 - 03:46 PM

http://www.telegraph...02/wroman02.xml

They are seeking an explanation for the unusual number of local people with western characteristics — green eyes, big noses, and even blonde hair — mixed with traditional Chinese features.

"I really think we are descended from the Romans," said Song Guorong, 48, who with his wavy hair, six-foot frame and strikingly long, hooked nose stands out from his short, round-faced office colleagues.


Something strikes me as pretty d**** racist about this.

For starters, anyone who has had the opportunity to compare Chinese (especially northern) with mediterranean/southern European types side by side can see who is tall and who isn't. I'm 180cm, I feel tall around Italians, but not among Beijingese.

#44 Kenneth

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 08:38 PM

So people from Beijing are actually taller than Italians now?

You really are remarkable Conan.
Average height for Italians is the usual aprox 175cm of Europeans (174.58 cm according to "Secular trend and regional differences in the stature of Italians, 1854–1980 " while Chinese average is 164.8 cm according CHNS(1997) & 169.7 cm according to National statistics, 2001 ).
Xinhua has many articles stating the height of Chinese since 1975 is greater by 6cm which means many of the surviving earlier generations, born earlier than the 1970's, will be less than this modern anounced average http://news.xinhuane...ent_5550763.htm.

Don't try too hard to see racism everywhere. There may be marginal differences between people in this region and this account is playing up the differences. Maybe 'short' or 'round faced' might not be diplomatic but it is not trying to do anything more than announce a difference.
It is the Chinese native in that area first who point to their features and then claim they are Roman traits. They even use it to bring in tourism too despite there being no evidence of Roman ancestry and there being better explanations for European or Indo-european movements in ancient times.
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#45 BowlingforIllidan

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 05:51 AM

this has been getting a bit more press lately
http://www.telegraph...02/wroman02.xml

there's a Reuters TV report floating around as well. Apparently test results from blood samples taken in 2004 are out soon...
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