45 replies to this topic

[hansioux]

The ping-pu tribes didn't all died. To achieve that, a large masscare needed to happen. And I cannot find a massacare of that size in the Taiwanese history.

They were forced to move, or adapt Han names and languages.

the Spanish, mixed with the native population because most of them came as soldiers and therefore had no family

Please tell me how Taiwan is different from this?

[Kulong]

I didn't say the original population ALL died. Even many Native-Americans survived.

The Native-Americans were also forced to move to undesirable lands a.k.a. "reservations" like the Taiwanese aboriginies. Many also adopted English names.

In Latin America, a GREAT amount of mixing occurred between the Spanish and the Native-Americans. Mixing between Han Chinese and Taiwanese aboriginies were much more rare. I don't even know any Han Chinese from Taiwan with aboriginal blood, yet I can pick almost any Latino off the street and more likely than not that they are mixed of Spanish and Native-American.

[Sephodwyrm]

That people are not graded into classes from:
1. Peninsulares
2. Creoles
3. Mulattos
4. Mestizzos
etc etc.

In Taiwan, you have Hokkien Ran, Hakka Ran, Oa (Waisheng ren) and Huanna (the indigenous poeple). The last 2 are derogatory terms. None of them are graded into specific castes or are biased against in terms of opportunities etc (at least not stipulated).

The situation in Latin America is total enslavement in the systems of repartimiento and encomienda, something that's reminiscent of the serfdom system as well as systematic enslavement and military operations should there be resistance. Towards the end, as native populations get depleted, African slaves are brought in. In Taiwan, no one is systematically enslaved, though many Chinese in Taiwan did oppress the native. One must note that this oppression is not stipulated by law.

[hansioux]

I didn't say the original population ALL died.  Even many Native-Americans survived.

The Native-Americans were also forced to move to undesirable lands a.k.a. "reservations" like the Taiwanese aboriginies.  Many also adopted English names.

In Latin America, a GREAT amount of mixing occurred between the Spanish and the Native-Americans.  Mixing between Han Chinese and Taiwanese aboriginies were much more rare.  I don't even know any Han Chinese from Taiwan with aboriginal blood, yet I can pick almost any Latino off the street and more likely than not that they are mixed of Spanish and Native-American.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. The reservation (though there's not really some thing like that in Taiwan) in Taiwan are only for the aboriginals who always lived on the mountains. The migration of the Taiwanese aboriginals can be found in many books and web-sites. One of them is 台灣歷史圖說 by 周婉窈

There were a few Ping-Pu tribes from the mid-section of Western Taiwan to the Centeral and Eastern Taiwan. However, Ping-pu in the South and North, just stayed where they were.

Mixing between Han Chinese and Taiwanese aboriginals is EXTREMELY UNRARE. Majority of Qing dynasty Chinese immigrants were workers which brought no wives. They all married aboriginals. Such as my ancestors.

Then during the Japanese Colonial times, well, there was no Chinese immigration.

When Nationalist fled to Taiwan, most of the people were "SOLDIERS". Who married locals, including aboriginals or Hanized aboriginals.

Taiwan's population formation is just like that of Latin America. Not at all like United States.

[Kulong]

No.  The reservation (though there's not really some thing like that in Taiwan) in Taiwan are only for the aboriginals who always lived on the mountains.  The migration of the Taiwanese aboriginals can be found in many books and web-sites.  One of them is 台灣歷史圖說 by 周婉窈

There were a few Ping-Pu tribes from the mid-section of Western Taiwan to the Centeral and Eastern Taiwan.  However, Ping-pu in the South and North, just stayed where they were.

My point is, both Native-Americans and Taiwanese aboriginies were driven from their lands to less desireable lands. Native-Americans were placed in "reservations" and Taiwanese aboriginies were driven to the mountains.

Mixing between Han Chinese and Taiwanese aboriginals is EXTREMELY UNRARE.  Majority of Qing dynasty Chinese immigrants were workers which brought no wives.  They all married aboriginals.  Such as my ancestors.

Then during the Japanese Colonial times, well, there was no Chinese immigration.

When Nationalist fled to Taiwan, most of the people were "SOLDIERS".  Who married locals, including aboriginals or Hanized aboriginals.

Taiwan's population formation is just like that of Latin America.  Not at all like United States.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will stop the arguement here because I admit I don't have enough knowledge on this topic to go any further. However, it does seem like you are exaggerating quite a bit regarding the mixing between Han Chinese and Taiwanese aboriginies.

It actually sounds a lot like TI propaganda making "本省人" benshengren somehow "different" from Han Chinese therefore "Taiwan should be independent".

I can only hope that someone with a little more knowledge on this issue can prove you wrong.

[hansioux]

My point is, both Native-Americans and Taiwanese aboriginies were driven from their lands to less desireable lands.  Native-Americans were placed in "reservations" and Taiwanese aboriginies were driven to the mountains.

No, the mountain aboriginals have been there since the beginning of Han immigration towards Taiwan. They were not "pushed" to the mountains.

In fact, besides Altayal, Bunun, and Tsao none of the other what you call "mountain aboriginals" lives in the mountains. All of which have lived there for more than 500 years.

Again, only few tribes from the central west have moved. Most of the Ping-Pu aboriginal never left where their ancestors lived.

I will stop the arguement here because I admit I don't have enough knowledge on this topic to go any further.  However, it does seem like you are exaggerating quite a bit regarding the mixing between Han Chinese and Taiwanese aboriginies. 

It actually sounds a lot like TI propaganda making "本省人" benshengren somehow "different" from Han Chinese therefore "Taiwan should be independent". 

I can only hope that someone with a little more knowledge on this issue can prove you wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, you can hope. Or actually study this matter before you call others spreading propaganda. In fact, the only form of propaganda has been that there were only a hand full of aboriginals before the Chinese arrived. There were a lot of aboriginals, and before the Chinese arrived, they didn't all decided to leave the coastal areas empty.

There have been cross tribal kingdoms formed by the ping-pu aboriginals. Dutch even paid homage to the king. All these people didn't just disappear.

[Kulong]

Sorry I don't have enough interest in Taiwanese aboriginals to study their history.

Yes, you can hope. Or actually study this matter before you call others spreading propaganda. In fact, the only form of propaganda has been that there were only a hand full of aboriginals before the Chinese arrived. There were a lot of aboriginals, and before the Chinese arrived, they didn't all decided to leave the coastal areas empty.

There have been cross tribal kingdoms formed by the ping-pu aboriginals. Dutch even paid homage to the king. All these people didn't just disappear.

I said it SOUNDS like propaganda, not that it IS. Get it straight.

I was educated in Taiwan until the fourth grade. We've always been taught that when Han Chinese came to Taiwan, we drove the aboriginals toward the mountains away from the coastal areas. So I don't know who spreads the "propaganda" that you mentinoed above.

[hansioux]

I was educated in Taiwan until the fourth grade.  We've always been taught that when Han Chinese came to Taiwan, we drove the aboriginals toward the mountains away from the coastal areas.  So I don't know who spreads the "propaganda" that you mentinoed above.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People in Taiwan can point fingers at each other for this, especially the political parties.

But the answer is clear, the Han have been spread this propaganda. Doesn't matter if it's Han in China or Han in Taiwan.

Propaganda like this is being spread by every colonial powers that came to Taiwan.

Japanese also claim that the Taiwanese aboriginals are related to Japan.

For example, the Bunun tribe had a legend that says their ancestor had a brother called Maya (yeah, aka the Mayans), and they were seperated by the great flood. But their ancestrial spirits told them that the two decendents of the family would meet again.

Therefore the Japanese took this and told them that the Japanese are the seperated brother.

That is why in the Bunun language, Japanese are called Mayans. (Which makes me wonder if there is a true connection between the Bunun and the Mayans XD)

There are enough historical records linguistic and archeology facts on the topic of aboriginal migration due to Han immigration. Especially the record of Japanese, dutch, french, and English sources are well established.

[Kulong]

Please read all the posts carefully before you start babbling away next time.

I mentioned that we were taught that Han settlers drove the aboriginals toward the mountains away from the coastal areas.

I mentioned NOTHING about Japanese relating to the aboriginals, nor do I really care.

Stop embarrasing yourself and argue for the arguement's sake...

[Sephodwyrm]

I wonder how has creationism theories of ancient tribes have anything to do with this. The Japanese did not treat their own indigenous Ainu people well either.

[hansioux]

I wonder how has creationism theories of ancient tribes have anything to do with this. The Japanese did not treat their own indigenous Ainu people well either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think that's Bunun's creation legend. Simply their flood legend.

Well, China did not treat their own minority groups too well either. Tibet, Uyghur to name a few.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"1. Mass immigration and drive the original inhabitants off their land."

Ironic, didn't you say that didn't happen and they were intermarried?


"2. Forcing the original inhabitants to give up their culture and language."

Prove that its forced.


"3. Small portion of racial previliged people ruling over a large portion of the population."

Thats ridiculous, so if black people suddenly gained power in the U.S. and start oppressing the others, its a Black colony? What nonsense.

Not to mention its merely the inhabitant and not the government that oppress the natives. In fact the government always tried to settle ethnic disputes, and Prosecuted the Han to give justice, sometimes even to appease the minorities. Lin Ze Xiu has done that, and even the PRC have done so. And I can give you examples, when a Han soldier was in Tibet and felt hungry, he killed a few crows and ate them, the local tibetan were furious for killing the sacred animal and killed the Han, the PRC, gave them pardon because they are minorities!


Finally do you even know what the definition of an ethnicity is? Its not just racial, cultural and linguistic are the most important part of an ethnic group. As long as that ethnic group have some decent amount of blood of another ethnic group and has all their cultural and linguistic traits, that group of people is pretty much the ethnic group of those that assimilated it. Race is even less important when both ethnic group is of the same general race, Mongoloid, without decent genetic testing, no one can even tell them apart. As for Han, they themselves aren't even a single race, and I know people that are categorized as Han who are probably more mongol. In fact in the certain region of Yunnan and Fu Jian there are people that is perhaps little "Han" blood in them and are still considered Han simply for their culture and language. So what is your point to prove that taiwanese have aboriginal blood in them. They are still Han. It amounts to nothing, all these blood only mean that they are under propaganda to be taught of what their political views should be. If genetic testing is not done, they don't know anything and any idiot would tell you the majority of the Taiwanese are Han. You can pick a politically ignorant person and they won't tell you the difference of ethnicity between Taiwanese and the people of different parts of mainland. The majority of taiwans inhabitant are Han ethnicity not Gao Shang, no matter if they have Gao Shang blood in them or not.


"Well, China did not treat their own minority groups too well either. Tibet, Uyghur to name a few. "

Why the minority when they are treated the same as any Han and even given privilege? I'm a minority and I know that from first hand experience, and you might want to go to Lhasa and Urumchi to cure your utter ignorance of treatments. Or perhaps you haven't even read the PRC constitution, that would be a good start for someone who never even been to these places.

[hansioux]

"1. Mass immigration and drive the original inhabitants off their land."

Ironic, didn't you say that didn't happen and they were intermarried?

taken out of context. I said in central Taiwan only.

"2. Forcing the original inhabitants to give up their culture and language."

Prove that its forced.

Japanese's 皇民化 and Nationalist's forbation of speaking anything besides mandarin.

"3. Small portion of racial previliged people ruling over a large portion of the population."

Thats ridiculous, so if black people suddenly gained power in the U.S. and start oppressing the others, its a Black colony? What nonsense.

If the black people arrived to America in their own ships and conqured America then yes. Otherwise, your example is far off from what you are trying to model.

Not to mention its merely the inhabitant and not the government that oppress the natives. In fact the government always tried to settle ethnic disputes, and Prosecuted the Han to give justice, sometimes even to appease the minorities. Lin Ze Xiu has done that, and even the PRC have done so. And I can give you examples, when a Han soldier was in Tibet and felt hungry, he killed a few crows and ate them, the local tibetan were furious for killing the sacred animal and killed the Han, the PRC, gave them pardon because they are minorities!
Finally do you even know what the definition of an ethnicity is? Its not just racial, cultural and linguistic are the most important part of an ethnic group. As long as that ethnic group have some decent amount of blood of another ethnic group and has all their cultural and linguistic traits, that group of people is pretty much the ethnic group of those that assimilated it. Race is even less important when both ethnic group is of the same general race, Mongoloid, without decent genetic testing, no one can even tell them apart. As for Han, they themselves aren't even a single race, and I know people that are categorized as Han who are probably more mongol. In fact in the certain region of Yunnan and Fu Jian there are people that is perhaps little "Han" blood in them and are still considered Han simply for their culture and language. So what is your point to prove that taiwanese have aboriginal blood in them. They are still Han. It amounts to nothing, all these blood only mean that they are under propaganda to be taught of what their political views should be. If genetic testing is not done, they don't know anything and any idiot would tell you the majority of the Taiwanese are Han. You can pick a politically ignorant person and they won't tell you the difference of ethnicity between Taiwanese and the people of different parts of mainland. The majority of taiwans inhabitant are Han ethnicity not Gao Shang, no matter if they have Gao Shang blood in them or not.

Agree. I have no problem with that. Think about what you are saying. People like Sephodwyrm and Wu Fei are refusing to acknowledge the fact that most Taiwanese aren't from China. I am simply proving my point. It does not conflict with what you are saying. But one point is, GaoShan all the aboriginals. GaoShan are just the less Hanized aboriginals.

"Well, China did not treat their own minority groups too well either. Tibet, Uyghur to name a few. "

Why the minority when they are treated the same as any Han and even given privilege? I'm a minority and I know that from first hand experience, and you might want to go to Lhasa and Urumchi to cure your utter ignorance of treatments. Or perhaps you haven't even read the PRC constitution, that would be a good start for someone who never even been to these places.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd love to go. However the peace you described seems to relect when the people don't voice oppionions different to the PRC. When they do voice their discontent, I don't recall it being that peaceful.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"taken out of context. I said in central Taiwan only."

Then thats quite irrelevant and would be a flaw to say Taiwan is a colony. Since only part of it is driven out, not to mention that isn't the definition of colony anyway. Or else every part of the earth are colonies, or perhaps they are.


"If the black people arrived to America in their own ships and conqured America then yes. Otherwise, your example is far off from what you are trying to model."

No its not, my point is simply a ethnic minority dominating a group doesn't equal a colony. Not to mention Taiwan is not ethnic dominated since most people are Han which you yourself agreed.


"Japanese's 皇民化 and Nationalist's forbation of speaking anything besides mandarin."

So you are saying that the people there forgot all about the aboriginese language in just half a century? Not too logical


"I'd love to go. However the peace you described seems to relect when the people don't voice oppionions different to the PRC. When they do voice their discontent, I don't recall it being that peaceful."

Yes and its not just the minorities like you emphasize them to be. Its for all.

[hansioux]

Then thats quite irrelevant and would be a flaw to say Taiwan is a colony. Since only part of it is driven out, not to mention that isn't the definition of colony anyway. Or else every part of the earth are colonies, or perhaps they are.

So your definition of colony is every one has to be driven out? Then I guess India was not a British colony then. Or there was never any colony in history, or perhaps they weren't.

No its not, my point is simply a ethnic minority dominating a group doesn't equal a colony. Not to mention Taiwan is not ethnic dominated since most people are Han which you yourself agreed.

Your model is still incorrect! It does not reflect the fact that the minorities came from somewhere else and ruled the majority with force.

If they are all Han and so "similar" like you said, howcome they could tell each other apart? XD

Think about it.

So you are saying that the people there forgot all about the aboriginese language in just half a century? Not too logical.

??? What are you talking about?

The Ping-Pu aboriginals went through 3 colonialist. Not counting the Qing government, just the Japanese and the Nationalist is a spand over 100 years. And to answer your question, yes, even the Gao Shan aboriginals' language are almost at extinction after little more than 50 years of Nationalist rule. If the green movement didn't catch on, and started the all preservation, it would have died in the near future. Most of Taiwanese baseball players are aboriginals. Why don't you look in to see how many of them can still speak their mother language? Less than 1%.

Yes and its not just the minorities like you emphasize them to be. Its for all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hahaha, I love that comment. So China just treat everyone equally bad.

Well, whether China treated Tibetans worse than their other conquest is obvious. Forcing Buddhist monks to kill other monks is not something the PRC army did to the Han monks.