12 replies to this topic

[DaMo]

Alright, but don't forget to credit the source and/or post source links if you're quoting lots of verbatim.

I'll do it for you this once: http://en.wikipedia....Erlitou_culture

Please do it on your own next time, hmm?

[DaMo]

Your article had a somewhat impersonal tone. Having been through three college degrees and thereby having had to deal with people who think that the first Google result all you need for a report, I tend to be good at differentiating composite research from single-source quoting. A quick search for a phrase from the article revealed its source.

Quoting Wikipedia or other sources is fine, as long as you use the quote box and add a link. In the case of Wikipedia, it's not legally required as Wikipedia is copyleft, but in the case of many other sources, it's necessary.

If you're going to start a whole new forum topic on a subject, though, we'd much appreciate if you contribute something original by looking through a number of sources and bringing out an summary perspective.

[sunflower1]

Browsed some books from library this weekends, i found most of chinese history books begin with neolithic culture talking. but mostly will cover the Yangshao culture and then Longshan culture. after that most books said the Xia dynasty was lack of evidence or blend with myth.

So what is these Yangshao, Longshan, and meantioned by this topic,erlitou, culture ?

[sunflower1]

yes Liu Bang,i checked the wiki for neolithic culture and read the whole things. but these entry only covered little informations. the book i read now, All under heaven, also only have 2-3 pages writting about neolithic culture and Xia dynasty. but in this book, the author say that Xia have a support from Bamboo annals. this is written in wiki also. but other books still said that Xia was mostly unsupported and rely on Sima Qian writting.

now back to the cultures. in All under heaven there is one culture named Qinglian' gang culture which did not have entry in wiki.

but then searching in internet i found one article directly speculate that Xia dynasty started counted in Erlitou culture. here the article :

Bronze Age Capital of China

Erlitou is a very large Bronze Age site located in the Yilou basin of the Yellow River, about 10 kilometers southwest of Yanshi City in Henan Province of China. Erlitou has long been associated with the Xia or early Shang Dynasty, but can be more neutrally known as the type site of the Erlitou culture. Erlitou was occupied between about 3500-1250 BC. During its heyday (ca 1900-1600 BC) the city included an area of almost 300 hectares, with deposits in some places up to 4 meters deep. Palatial buildings, royal tombs, bronze foundries, paved roads, and rammed earth foundations attest to the complexity and importance of this early central place.

The earliest occupations at Erlitou date to the Neolithic Yangshao culture [3500-3000 BC], and Longshan culture [3000-2500 BC] followed by a 600 year period of abandonment.
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The Erlitou settlement began about 1900 BC. The city rose steadily in importance, becoming the primary center in in the region by about 1800 BC. During the Erligang period [1600-1250 BC], the city decreased in importance and was abandoned.

Erlitou Characteristics

Erlitou has eight identified palaces--large scale buildings with elite architecture and artifacts--three of which have been fully excavated, the most recent in 2003. Excavations indicate that the city was planned with specialized buildings, a ceremonial area, attached workshops, and a central palatial complex enclosing two rammed-earth foundation palaces. Elite burials were placed within the courtyards of these palaces, accompanied by grave goods such as bronzes, jades, turquoise, and lacquer wares. Other tombs were discovered scattered throughout the site rather than in a cemetery precinct.

Erlitou also had a planned grid of roads. An intact section of parallel wagon tracks, 1 meter wide and 5 meters long, is the earliest known evidence of a wagon in China. Other parts of the city contain the remains of smaller dwellings, craft workshops, pottery kilns and tombs. Important craft areas include a bronze casting foundry and a turquoise workshop.

Erlitou is known for its bronzes: the earliest bronze vessels cast in China were made in the foundaries at Erlitou. The first bronze vessels were made expressly for the ritual consumption of wine, which was probably based on rice or wild grape.

Is Erlitou Xia or Shang?

Scholarly debate continues concerning whether Erlitou is best considered Xia or Shang Dynasty. In fact, Erlitou is central to the discussion concerning whether the Xia dynasty exists at all. The earliest known bronzes in China were cast in Erlitou; and its complexity argues that it had a state level of organization. Xia is listed in Zhou dynasty records as being the first of the bronze age societies; but scholars are divided as to whether this culture existed as a separate entity from the earliest Shang or was a political fiction created by the Zhou dynasty leaders to cement their control.

Erlitou was first discovered in 1959 and has been excavated for decades.

Sources

Allan, Sarah 2007 Erlitou and the Formation of Chinese Civilization: Toward a New Paradigm. The Journal of Asian Studies 66:461-496.

Liu, Li and Hong Xu 2007 Rethinking Erlitou: legend, history and Chinese archaeology. Antiquity 81:886–901.

Yuan, Jing and Rowan Flad 2005 New zooarchaeological evidence for changes in Shang Dynasty animal sacrifice. Journal of Anthropological Archaeology 24(3):252-270.

Yang, Xiaoneng. 2004. Erlitou Site at Yanshi. Entry 43 in Chinese Archaeology in the Twentieth Century: New Perspectives on China's Past. Yale University Press, New Haven.

This glossary entry is part of the Dictionary of Archaeology. Any mistakes are the responsibility of Kris Hirst.

http://archaeology.a.../qt/erlitou.htm

this source didn't meantioned most literature used in Wiki's entry for neo lithic culture, but only one author Li Liu. so i suspect there are two versions interpretation on this issue.

for me, i only know that the chinese history started with myth about 3 Sovereigns and 5 Emperors followed by Xia.

So how can we connect the cultures to these "standard" timeline of chinese history and dynasty ?

Edited by jullian_bei, 16 March 2008 - 06:15 AM.

[sunflower1]

dear Liu Bang,

Thanks for warning about wikipedia. Btw, each time I read wiki I will see the quotation and refer the sources. as long as the source is meantioned i think it's safe to rely on. Just be more critical when the info is doesn't have quotation, but mostly in wiki it will be meantioned. It's not that bad because some article written by realiable writer, some of CHF member write that also.

Here the books I read last weekend :

-All Under Heaven: A Complete History of China by Rayne Kruger
-China: Its History and Culture by Scott W. Morton
these have a neolithic culture section but only small covered. there are also some other books but i forgot the title, one book title "Condensed China history" i found not too good and only tell the basic things about china.

-The Early Chinese Empires: Qin and Han by Mark Edward Lewis >> concentrate on Qin and Han.

i read them parallel and like you said, they all not say a same things. It is the second book (China: Its History....) that said Xia dynasty was myth. For neolithic culture, I think those all written by archeological discovery. If I can make it to Woodlands library this afternoon I will post some direct quotation about this issue.

Qinglian' gang culture. I read all the links you provided before, thanks. I only meantioned why it didn't come out in wiki.

About Erlitou speculation to Xia dynasty. That is the only source I find so far, any comments about this article by about.com ?

Now, since the Neolithic culture happen in a time frame prior to 3 Sovereigns and 5 Emperors era, of course, I curious to know what its related. This was the thing when first come to my mind when i read about it. Can CHF discus about this? I thought somewhere ago we said we lack of historical topic.

Edited by jullian_bei, 17 March 2008 - 08:18 PM.

[sunflower1]

i browse for two books again this week and again come out with mixed opinion about Xia dynasty.

here entry about Erlitou culture and Xia dynasty in book China A New History. Author John K. Fairbank and Merle Goldman, 1992, i read the 2001 reprinted. i am truncated some sentences.

in 1959 excavation at Erlitou (Yanshi) uncovered another site with large palace that seems likely to have been a capital of the Xia dynasty. Erlitou was direct successor to the Longshan Black Pottery culture,preceded the early Shang with radiocarbon date of ca. 2100 to 1800 BC. Xia and Shang have taken tangible form.

There seems to have been a rather smooth transition from the innumerable Neolithic villages of the Longshan culture to the Bronze Age capital of the Three Dynasties, all of which we can view as successive phases of a single culture development. Looking at the tools and weapons, the pots and bronze vessels, religion,goverment (etc.) we can see a high degree of cultural homogeneity and continuity. One dynasty succeeded another through warfare, but there is no evidence of violent intrusion by an outside culture. Xia, Shang and Zhou centered in three different areas and co-exist.

this book give more detail info about neolithic culture and the early Three dynasties, if u got time you may take a look at this.

the other book, Cambridge Illustrated History China, Patricia Buckley Ebrey,1996, read the 2003 reprinted, said ,
"still uncertain whether or not there was a fully fledged Xia dynasty before Shang, but there was without doubt a major transition in this period". also have infos about cultures and the three dynasties, pictures also.


but one more book, but no detail info about Xia dynasty tell :
"the first Chinese dynasty noted is the Xia, but its existence has yet to be conclusively corroborated by archaeological evidence" The history of china, david C. Wright - 2001.

hopefully interested for you.