13 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

The term Jianghu 江湖 literally means "river and lake". But it seems used among the martial arts novel as the 'world of pugilist' or the common martial world. Some bandits like to associate their world as "Jianghu".

What is the proper translation of "Jianghu 江湖" into english?

[snowybeagle]

What is the proper translation of "Jianghu 江湖" into english?

It all depends on the context and there is no single equivalent word or phrase in English that will suit every occassion for use.

The Chinese language has many phrases that defy literal translations. Another example is 打天下.
In fact, all languages has phrases/terms that cannot be literally translated.

[tung2sai]

That's quite hard to translate, like others have said.

Alternative Frontier maybe a good one.
In some cases, the underworld. (not only in the crime world in a sense, but a different set of rules and relationships to abide by, that may not be considered as the official authority)

[tongyan]

In fact, all languages has phrases/terms that cannot be literally translated.

Many times it's because there just isn't an equivalent concept/idea in the other language.

[tung2sai]

Many times it's because there just isn't an equivalent concept/idea in the other language.

This is very true. Sometimes I try to translate a few characters to their fullest meaning, and in the end I could get an entire paragraph that might contradict itself. There are words that have different associations, like how some languages don't typically associate certain meanings with a particular word while other languages do.

[snowybeagle]

Many times it's because there just isn't an equivalent concept/idea in the other language.

I'll describe it more as language evolving with historical developments, of people and events.

For example, it would not be easy to translate the term "courtly love" into Mandarin, as the phenomena and concept were, as far as I'm aware of, exclusively European.

The term scholar in historical Europe could be applied to those studied from a wide range of fields of learning, but in historical China, one cannot be a "scholar" by merely being a scientist but did not study the Classics.

[大泽升龙]

The term Jianghu 江湖 literally means "river and lake". But it seems used among the martial arts novel as the 'world of pugilist' or the common martial world. Some bandits like to associate their world as "Jianghu".

What is the proper translation of "Jianghu 江湖" into english?

I think "riverlake" would be a good metaphor.

[fcharton]

Many western translators seem to just call them "rivers and lakes". The metaphor is probably not as clear in english (or other western languages as it is in chinese), but it does work. There are similar metaphors in western languages, which revolve around "roads" (instead of rivers). The french would speak of "bandit de grand chemin" (big road bandits), and wayfarer, wanderer and similar terms are often used in western litterature to designate the same kind of people. In romantic litterature, of gothic legends of the romantic era, heroes are often depicted as full time wanderers/vagabonds.

So, if you want to retain the metaphor, this would be the way to go...

Some translators use the word "outlaws" (as in Outlaws of the Marshes), which sort of works, but kills the metaphor. I wouldn't use knight, errant knight or any chivalric term for them, because, even though, some of those Lake and River people are depicted as having a chivalric honour code, chivalry is some form of institution, whereas Jianghu is not.

Francois

[Chen06]

Yes, rivers and lakes is the common translation. I guess you could say it is sort of a pugilistic world bound by a Jianghu code of honor and ideals(like bushido).

[Prince of the South]

Rivers and Lakes. Why the association with water, not land? (eg mountains?)

Jianghu seems to suggest a world of the "other" as in underworld as the metaphor depicts not of land but of water, in my opinion.

[Chen06]

well, because literally jiang is river and hu is lake

Edited by Chen06, 08 January 2008 - 01:55 AM.

[William O'Chee]

This is indeed the point that Wittgenstein was making about the the linguistic errors commonly made in philosophy - and that between people who speak the same language. It highlights the care which must be taken in interpreting anything which comes from another language.

[jacksun]

GangHood