65 replies to this topic

[Yun]

Oops, I thought this was obvious-- "Da-qin"="La-tin", like "Da-xia"="Par-thia".

Two problems with this:

1. Daxia was actually Bactria. The Chinese name for Parthia was Anxi, which is generally believed to derive from the Arsacid dynasty.

2. 'Daqin' doesn't sound enough like 'Latin'. But 'Latium' is possible: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latium

[naruwan]

Two problems with this:

1. Daxia was actually Bactria. The Chinese name for Parthia was Anxi, which is generally believed to derive from the Arsacid dynasty.

2. 'Daqin' doesn't sound enough like 'Latin'. But 'Latium' is possible: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latium

even with Lazio it still sounds a little off.

I always have a question regarding Daxia, Bactria and 月支 Bah-chi. Anxi should be Arsacid no rpoblem.

[Yun]

I've moved the great discussion we're having on the pronunciation of 'Yuezhi' vs. 'Rouzhi' to this older thread on the topic: http://www.chinahist...p...&hl=Bactria

[Richard Lim]

So far as I know no Hua person ever reached Rome during this time. To do so he would have had either to traverse the Parthian realm (unlikely since I can't see Parthians allowing a Han envoy a pass for through passage so that he could establish diplomatic contact with their own arch-rivals) or somehow get down to the Malabar coast of India and take ship (also unlikely in this period I think).

As for the Romans themselves, the first certain reference to China dates from a much later time: an early seventh-century History written by Theophylact Simocatta who refers to a place called Taugast that scholars generally agree is northern China. Earlier references to "Seres" in Pliny and other Roman sources refer to central asian intermediaries and not to Hua people in China proper.

[Yun]

I've merged three threads together since they all relate to the Han empire's knowledge of the Roman empire, or vice versa.

[Kenneth]

So far as I know no Hua person ever reached Rome during this time. To do so he would have had either to traverse the Parthian realm (unlikely since I can't see Parthians allowing a Han envoy a pass for through passage so that he could establish diplomatic contact with their own arch-rivals) or somehow get down to the Malabar coast of India and take ship (also unlikely in this period I think).

As for the Romans themselves, the first certain reference to China dates from a much later time: an early seventh-century History written by Theophylact Simocatta who refers to a place called Taugast that scholars generally agree is northern China. Earlier references to "Seres" in Pliny and other Roman sources refer to central asian intermediaries and not to Hua people in China proper.

The Romans would have been aware of a land where the huge volumes of silk they purchased originated from and the 2 nations were conscious of each other, and their citizens potentially may have even mingled in Parthia.
There are stories of Roman envoys reaching China in the Eastern Han but they may not have been official or were even frauds.
The Parthians did try and discourage contact by exaggerating the difficulties and length to potential diplomats. People profited by being the middlemen between these 2 empires.
Here is a reference to people who came from the lands of silk (Seres) being met by Romans which means a mysterious land far to the East. I kind of doubt these have to be Chinese though. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres)
The concept of Seres is pretty imaginative and could be something else to the East. I agree that they were likely some intermediaries who came to Rome. The Wiki author below is not correct in translating Seres as 'Chinese'.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Zhang_Qian

The Roman historian Florus describes the visit of numerous envoys, included Seres (Chinese), to the first Roman Emperor Augustus, who reigned between 27 BCE and 14 CE:

"Even the rest of the nations of the world which were not subject to the imperial sway were sensible of its grandeur, and looked with reverence to the Roman people, the great conqueror of nations. Thus even Scythians and Sarmatians sent envoys to seek the friendship of Rome. Nay, the Seres came likewise, and the Indians who dwelt beneath the vertical sun, bringing presents of precious stones and pearls and elephants, but thinking all of less moment than the vastness of the journey which they had undertaken, and which they said had occupied four years. In truth it needed but to look at their complexion to see that they were people of another world than ours." ("Cathey and the way thither", Henry Yule).

In 97 CE the Chinese general Ban Chao went as far west as the Caspian Sea with 70,000 men and established direct military contacts with the Parthian Empire, also dispatching an envoy to Rome in the person of Gan Ying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gan_Ying

Although Gan Ying probably never reached Rome, he is, at least in the historical records, the Chinese who went the furthest west during antiquity and he gathered what information he could.

It seems neither party made it far enough, and if they did it was not in way that impacted on history.

[Yun]

What-- you mean the 21st standard Mandarin pronunciation of Daqin doesn't sound like "Latin" (as it was pronounced in 1st-2th century B.C.E)? Well, I'm not surprised.

I think even the reconstructed Archaic Chinese or Middle Chinese pronunciations for Daqin would not sound much like "Latin", although I'm open to correction from any linguists here. For example, I'm guessing that the ancient pronunciation of 'Da' (as in 'big') was something like 'tai' or 'tua'. I have never heard that 'Da' was once pronounced like 'La'.

[Richard Lim]

These are comments that are distilled from a review article by Edwin G. Pulleybank: "The Roman Empire as Known to Han China," Journal of the American Oriental Society, 119 (1999), pp. 71-79. The book he is reviewing is D. D. Leslie and K. H. J. Gardiner, The Roman Empire in Chinese Sources.


First of all Chinese references to Da Qin only begin in the Later Han.

Pulleybank, citing the French sinologist Paul Pelliot, finds it almost certain that Da Qin is a reference to the eastern part of the Roman empire and not to Rome as a capital of the Roman Empire or to the Roman Empire as a whole. He also does not think that Da Qin is a phonetic transcription of a foreign word (in any language).

It's a rich article and I invite people to read it themselves. But here are some highlighted texts and discussion:

One main text for resolving this question seems to be the Sanskrit text of the "Questions of Milinda" (the Greco-Indian ruler Menander, c. 155-30 BC), or Milindapanha. This text was translated into Chinese during the Eastern Jin as Naxian biqiu jing (now in the Taisho Tripitaka [the Buddhis canon] 1670a and .

Menander was conversing with the sage Nagasena. Nagasena asked the king:

"In what country was Your Majesty originally born?" The king said, "I was originally born in the country of Da Qin. The name of the country is Alisan."

Alisan is quite definitely Alexandria by Egypt (Pelliot argued against ID with other Alexandrias in the east), which makes perfect sense it seems. This is a piece of evidence he uses to support the argument that Da Qin references to the eastern regions of the RE.

Pulleybank then goes on to question the ability to derive Da Qin as though it came from a phonetic transcription from a non- Chinese word. He cites the first datable reference as the Hou Hanshu where the mission of Gan Ying in 97 AD is descrived.

"In the sixth year (of Yongyuan, 94 AD), Ban Caho again attacked and overthrew Yanqi (Karashar) and thereupon over fifty countries all offered hostages and submitted. Of them, Tiaozhi, Anxi, and the various countries reaching to the edge of the sea over 40,000 li distant, all offered tribute through multiple interpreters. In the ninth year ( 97 AD) Ban Chao sent his aide Gan Ying who got as far as to look upon the Western Sea and return. These were all places that had not been reached in previous ages and are not described in the Classic of Mountains [and Seas] [Shan hai Jing], He gave a full account of their land and customs, telling of their precious and strange products. Thereupon distant countries, Menqi and Doule, came in submission and sent envoys with tribute." (Hou Hanshu preamble to chapter on Western regions)

[it goes on in the same chapter]

"The Protector General Ban Chao and Chao sent Gan Ying on a mission ot Da Qin. He reached Tiaozhi, looked upon the Great Sea and wished to cross, but the mariners on the western edge of Anxi said to Ying: "The Sea is very broad and vast. With favorable winds those who come and go on it can cross in three months but if they encounter delaying winds it sometimes takes two years. Therefore those who set out on the sea always takes supplies for three years. Voyaging on the sea makes people long for sight of land and suffer from homesickness, and many perish." When Ying heard this he gave up his plan."

So Gan Ying never got to the territories of the Romans. The "Parthians" allegedly talked him out of it by stressing the length and difficulty of the journey.

The only plausible place for this conversation by the Great Sea/Western Sea to have taken place, if we accept the report, iis somewhere on the Indian Ocean (more likely) or on the western edge of the Persian Gulf.

Overall Pulleybank concludes in this way (p. 78): "A point that needs to be stressed is that the Chinese conception of Da Qin was confused from the outset with the ancient mythological notions about the far west.... Attempts to identify them [terms such as Da Qin] with actual western places are obviously futile."

[naruwan]

Dai-Chin probably. After taking both Holo and reconstructed Western Han Chinese into Account.

[naruwan]

These are comments that are distilled from a review article by Edwin G. Pulleybank: "The Roman Empire as Known to Han China," Journal of the American Oriental Society, 119 (1999), pp. 71-79. The book he is reviewing is D. D. Leslie and K. H. J. Gardiner, The Roman Empire in Chinese Sources.


First of all Chinese references to Da Qin only begin in the Later Han.

Pulleybank, citing the French sinologist Paul Pelliot, finds it almost certain that Da Qin is a reference to the eastern part of the Roman empire and not to Rome as a capital of the Roman Empire or to the Roman Empire as a whole. He also does not think that Da Qin is a phonetic transcription of a foreign word (in any language).

It's a rich article and I invite people to read it themselves. But here are some highlighted texts and discussion:

One main text for resolving this question seems to be the Sanskrit text of the "Questions of Milinda" (the Greco-Indian ruler Menander, c. 155-30 BC), or Milindapanha. This text was translated into Chinese during the Eastern Jin as Naxian biqiu jing (now in the Taisho Tripitaka [the Buddhis canon] 1670a and .

Menander was conversing with the sage Nagasena. Nagasena asked the king:

"In what country was Your Majesty originally born?" The king said, "I was originally born in the country of Da Qin. The name of the country is Alisan."

Alisan is quite definitely Alexandria by Egypt (Pelliot argued against ID with other Alexandrias in the east), which makes perfect sense it seems. This is a piece of evidence he uses to support the argument that Da Qin references to the eastern regions of the RE.

Pulleybank then goes on to question the ability to derive Da Qin as though it came from a phonetic transcription from a non- Chinese word. He cites the first datable reference as the Hou Hanshu where the mission of Gan Ying in 97 AD is descrived.

"In the sixth year (of Yongyuan, 94 AD), Ban Caho again attacked and overthrew Yanqi (Karashar) and thereupon over fifty countries all offered hostages and submitted. Of them, Tiaozhi, Anxi, and the various countries reaching to the edge of the sea over 40,000 li distant, all offered tribute through multiple interpreters. In the ninth year ( 97 AD) Ban Chao sent his aide Gan Ying who got as far as to look upon the Western Sea and return. These were all places that had not been reached in previous ages and are not described in the Classic of Mountains [and Seas] [Shan hai Jing], He gave a full account of their land and customs, telling of their precious and strange products. Thereupon distant countries, Menqi and Doule, came in submission and sent envoys with tribute." (Hou Hanshu preamble to chapter on Western regions)

[it goes on in the same chapter]

"The Protector General Ban Chao and Chao sent Gan Ying on a mission ot Da Qin. He reached Tiaozhi, looked upon the Great Sea and wished to cross, but the mariners on the western edge of Anxi said to Ying: "The Sea is very broad and vast. With favorable winds those who come and go on it can cross in three months but if they encounter delaying winds it sometimes takes two years. Therefore those who set out on the sea always takes supplies for three years. Voyaging on the sea makes people long for sight of land and suffer from homesickness, and many perish." When Ying heard this he gave up his plan."

So Gan Ying never got to the territories of the Romans. The "Parthians" allegedly talked him out of it by stressing the length and difficulty of the journey.

The only plausible place for this conversation by the Great Sea/Western Sea to have taken place, if we accept the report, iis somewhere on the Indian Ocean (more likely) or on the western edge of the Persian Gulf.

Overall Pulleybank concludes in this way (p. 78): "A point that needs to be stressed is that the Chinese conception of Da Qin was confused from the outset with the ancient mythological notions about the far west.... Attempts to identify them [terms such as Da Qin] with actual western places are obviously futile."

sorry, like to point out, the Greeks left Alexandria every where. There are 3 Alexandria in the Greko-Bactrian region that I know of. So Na-Xian-Bi-Qio Jin (which is also in the Pali Canon) isn't talking about the Alexandria in Egypt.

It is more likely talking about Alexandria in Areia, Alexandria in Caucasus, Alexandria in kandahar, or Alexandria in Uch.

Also, since the king was obviously of Greko descendant, the 大秦 Da Qin translation shines now light on the DaQin is Aegean theory.

[Richard Lim]

sorry, like to point out, the Greeks left Alexandria every where. There are 3 Alexandria in the Greko-Bactrian region that I know of. So Na-Xian-Bi-Qio Jin (which is also in the Pali Canon) isn't talking about the Alexandria in Egypt.

It is more likely talking about Alexandria in Areia, Alexandria in Caucasus, Alexandria in kandahar, or Alexandria in Uch.

Also, since the king was obviously of Greko descendant, the 大秦 Da Qin translation shines now light on the DaQin is Aegean theory.

The sinologist who discuss this, Pelliot and Pulleybank are aware of this well-known fact, as am I . They cite Hanshu 97A for instance with its reference to one of the other Alexandrias (in Arachosia/Kandahar or in Areia) with Wujishanli.

But Pelliot has earlier argued that the references to the distance between the point of the conversation and the city in question (details not related in the texts I quoted) rules out the Greco-Bactrian Alexandrias. Pulleybank finds this argument reasonably convincing. I am merely reporting their findings above.

Yes the Pali text (based on the lost Prakrit) of the Questions of Milinda has Alasandra. But it does not mention Da Qin.

Edited by Richard Lim, 01 February 2007 - 10:26 AM.

[naruwan]

In the Pali Canon, which by recent Comparative Studies by scholars in the Pali field has been proven to be a later translation than the Han Naxian biqiu jing, Da-Qin was not mentioned.

The Pali text simply says he was from Alisan.

The Chinese text shows a typical translation error of the era. The king said he was from the Country Da-Qin and the Country named Alisan. Where Alisan is the City not the Country. Similar error like 舍衛國 is actually a city not a country is another example.

In both texts it says Alisan is in between two Rivers. That leaves only one Alexandria. The one in Uch in Pakistan.

[Richard Lim]

What seems very likely to me is that the references to Da Qin is a later scribal gloss by someone who upon reading Alisan etc. immediately associated it with most famous Alexandria of them all at the time of the copying. Obviously the value of such a suggestion can only be determined through close examination of the textual and manuscript tradition....

Note of course that Alexandria by Egypt (or any significant city called Alexandria at any rate) did not become in any way or form "Roman" until after 31 B.C. The Pali Questions of Milinda predates that development by several generations if I am not mistaken and the Sanskrit text likewise (probably more, no?). So if Da Qin in the Milinda text has anything to do with Rome it has to be a later interpolation. If not, as you implied, this opens up a whole new ball game about the very meaning of Da Qin.

Edited by Richard Lim, 01 February 2007 - 10:56 AM.

[naruwan]

Distance eh? The King said Alisan was 200 由旬, 由延, yojana , derived from the root word yuj, which is how far a bull can hull a day with a carriage. Though a lot of Chinese text likes to say it's how long a troop could march in a day. Anyway, from most of the sources it's about 7 km. So Alisan is 1,400 km from south of Amus River which is northern Afganistan. It will place this Alexandria somewhere in Iran. The Alexandria in Egypt is more than 3,000 km away.

I just found there was another Alexandrria in Multan...

But if this Alexandria was in Iran, and if it indeed was build on an island, it could be Alexandria at Qeshm.

Historically, Qeshm island dates back far into the pre-Islamic era. Names as Qeshm, Keshm, Kish and Tunb mark the lengthy stay of Ilamids in the area several centuries before Christ's birth. It is, apparently, the island called Alexandria or Aracia by Ptolemy (Book 6, Chap. IV), in the 2nd century CE and as Alexandria by Ammianus Marcellinus (xxiii.6.42) in the 4th century.

Edited by naruwan, 01 February 2007 - 11:04 AM.

[naruwan]

ok, so I was having a hard time placing 舍竭城 (where the Q&A took place). I did some research, it's also known as 奢羯羅, which another source points to 巴基斯坦錫亞爾科特 (Sialkot in Pakistan).

1,400 km would place it around Iran or Afghanistan.