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#1 sylvester

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 10:39 PM

i don’t know if there anyone posting the same topic before, what i saw is many related talks in different sub-forum, so i want to make a general introduction for the five elements, with directions, animals, myth and somewhat i recall.

five elements should appear in china at very ancient time, may be the first seen of it is in the《山海經》. 《山海經》is a book that stated ancient myth of china, the book written NOT in sequential, but some scholar make it a time line, and found the story time is from the very beginning of earth creation to the king 禹.

in 《山海經》, we can found the original model of five elements, 黃帝 conquer the central place of china(中原, in fact, it means some eastern region of today's china map), which 黃(yellow) is the color of 土(earth/ground), the main element, it located at the center, not east, west, south nor north.and those goddess been conquered by 黃帝, is eastern dragon god called 帝俊, southern fire god called 炎帝, and west tiger queen called 西王母. (黃帝 is originally the northern god). they are all with the representative animals, color and direction.

the story of 山海經 could be posting in other post in future if been wanted.

this saying of five elements is being pushed to popular during 春秋戰國 period, and goes to peak in 漢 dynasty buy 董仲舒, which make a cross over saying of 儒,道,墨,法,名,陰陽,五行. that saying he made out is called 儒術, which been accepted by 漢武帝.

金defeat木, 木defeat土, 土defeat水, 水defeat火, 火defeat金.
金should be understand as METAL, but not gold for ancient Chinese.
metal is what used to made axe, which can cut tree(木) down,
tree break the soil(土) to grow,
soil, mud and stone etc.(土) is what only can stop water(水) when flooding,
water is what used to put out fire(火).

木give birth to火, 火give birth to土, 土give birth to金, 金give birth to水, 水give birth to木
wood(木) can be brunt(火),
fire(火) burns everything to soil(土),
soil contain metals(金),
metals condense dew(水),
water to irrigate plants(木).

黃土居中
yellow colored soil in center.
soil supply ALL resources, just like a king or a god, so it stand for CENTER.
東木,青龍,春
east for wood, for blue/green dragon, for spring.
east is the direction that sun rise, so east stand for birth, stand for life, stand for youth, energy, for spring.
plants face east to growth, and sun is what make plants growth strong, so plants represent east, and green is the color of plants, represent east too.
dragon is a aquatic creature, and the sea in the east of china, so dragon belong to east.
南火,朱雀,夏
south for fire, for red colored bird, for summer.
south part of china is more close to equator, relatively hot then north region that ancient Chinese lives in, so it stand for fire, and summer.
fire generate heat, so fire represents south.
phoenix have to burn himself in fire every 500years in order to get a new life, and ancient Chinese believe there is a bird kind creature in the sun(the biggest fire), so red color bird, or some say phoenix, represents south.
西金,白虎,秋
west for metals, for white tiger, for autumn.
west is the direct that sun goes down, so west stand for death, stand for old age, feels like autumn(tree comes dry and animals begin disappear in autumn).
metals is used to make weapons, axe, ect. to kills, to cut, to destroy something, so metal represents deaths, same as the feeling of sunset, and so belongs to west.
metals reflex light, so white represents west.
there are tiger lives in the west part of china, so tiger for west.
ancient Chinese will war at autumn normally(if you start a war not at autumn, you will be said as a bad king) since it is a season for death, for killing,.
北黑,玄武,冬
north for water, for black turtles, for winter.
northern part of china laid many snow mountain.(ancient Chinese most active in the northeast part of today's china map, and also the region between two river), snow for water, for winter.
compare to to snow mt., river seems having dark color, Chinese called the northern part of china, a world of 白山黑水.
for turtles... we all know what turtles act in myth, and what turtles imply in Chinese culture, but i cant just find out why it stand for north...


after knowing above, you will found 5 elements is just the elements of every part of Chinese culture.
some funny e.g. related to 5 elements:
->劉備,字玄德。
with his 字, "玄德", we can know what his name "備" means. 玄(black, with some reddish)is the color of water, "玄德" means "水德", the moral conduct of water.
the moral conduct of water is just perfectly flawless, and 備 can means fully, perfectly flawless (完備).
so 劉備 means (the one who desire the named for him wants) he having a perfectly flawless moral conduct like water.
->東西 stand for "things".
you just cant explain why "east west" means "things".
in 5 elements, 火金水火is used to represents 4 directions,
水(water) and 火(fire) is not able to hold in heads,
only 木(wood, east) and 金(metal, west) can hold in hands, so 東西 means "things(that you may hold in hand)"
->玄武門之變
every gate of royal city named with special meanings. 玄武for north, so 玄武門 is the most northern gate of the royal city. next to 玄武門 is the place where royal family lives, that "變" (event) happens next to it.
only by this event's name, without any history books, you can know, it is a event happens within the royal family, guess may be a fight for crown?
yes, that's the smaller brother kills the elder one, and get the crown.(唐太宗李世民)
->金水橋
it is the name of the river which flows in front of 太和殿 of forbidden city.
this name is not only means "金生水" (metals give birth to water),
but the river flows from west, 金水 means "water from west".
so it is a name that having double meaning.
->白玉台(foundation made by white jade)
that’s what laid under the big 3 hall of forbidden city, with a shape of chinese word "土".
黃土居中, yellow soil stand for center, that 土 shape foundation is the center of the whole forbidden city.
anything come from earth, ground, soil, so the only one who can stands on 土 shape foundation is the king.
木克土, wood defeat soil, and so you cant find any plants on that foundation.
水生木, water give birth to wood, so you can see there are so many drainage system on that foundation, in order not to let water stay on it.
->朱雀橋邊野草花,烏衣巷口夕陽斜。
that’s a famous poem, but little notes that 朱雀橋 is just a contrast to 烏衣巷 in color(red, south, to black, north).
and the 朱雀橋 is out of the city, and 烏衣巷 is inside the city,
so 朱雀橋 and 烏衣巷 is a pair of double contrast.


i think this is almost there for 5 elements...
if i forget to explain something common, please say it out.

Edited by sylvester, 08 January 2008 - 10:47 PM.

萬物靜觀皆自得,四時佳興與人同。

#2 Feng Xiaomin

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 11:45 AM

thanks a lot! although i have read about the the elements before, but this is most apprehensive!
仁者不以盛衰改节
义者不以存亡易心

#3 ggg214

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 04:54 AM

thanks for your contribution!
i have boought a book which introduce the five elements.
later in anceint time, five elements have been filled with more meaning.
such as in traditional chinese medicine, five elements are used to represent five internal organs. heart is fire, liver is plants, lung is metal, spleen is soil, nephridium is water. and the relationship among the five elements mentioned above is also used to treat illness.
i think the five elements is not the specified material at all. as it said, anything can be classified in five elements.

#4 Brian L. Kennedy

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 05:45 AM

The 5 Elements also is used in a number of traditional Chinese martial arts. Perhaps the best know martial arts use is in the art of Xingyiquan-(形意拳) Form Mind Boxing. In that system each of the 5 main techniques:
Splitting Fist (劈拳)
Drilling Fist (鑽拳)
Crushing Fist (崩拳)
Pounding Fist (炮拳)
Crossing Fist (橫拳)
are matched up to one of the Five Elements.

Take care,
Brian

#5 ggg214

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 06:52 AM

yeah
i have been told that tai ji is also belongs to the soil

#6 farg

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 06:34 AM

i don’t know if there anyone posting the same topic before, what i saw is many related talks in different sub-forum, so i want to make a general introduction for the five elements, with directions, animals, myth and somewhat i recall.

five elements should appear in china at very ancient time, may be the first seen of it is in the《山海經》. 《山海經》is a book that stated ancient myth of china, the book written NOT in sequential, but some scholar make it a time line, and found the story time is from the very beginning of earth creation to the king 禹.

in 《山海經》, we can found the original model of five elements, 黃帝 conquer the central place of china(中原, in fact, it means some eastern region of today's china map), which 黃(yellow) is the color of 土(earth/ground), the main element, it located at the center, not east, west, south nor north.and those goddess been conquered by 黃帝, is eastern dragon god called 帝俊, southern fire god called 炎帝, and west tiger queen called 西王母. (黃帝 is originally the northern god). they are all with the representative animals, color and direction.

the story of 山海經 could be posting in other post in future if been wanted.

this saying of five elements is being pushed to popular during 春秋戰國 period, and goes to peak in 漢 dynasty buy 董仲舒, which make a cross over saying of 儒,道,墨,法,名,陰陽,五行. that saying he made out is called 儒術, which been accepted by 漢武帝.

金defeat木, 木defeat土, 土defeat水, 水defeat火, 火defeat金.
金should be understand as METAL, but not gold for ancient Chinese.
metal is what used to made axe, which can cut tree(木) down,
tree break the soil(土) to grow,
soil, mud and stone etc.(土) is what only can stop water(水) when flooding,
water is what used to put out fire(火).

木give birth to火, 火give birth to土, 土give birth to金, 金give birth to水, 水give birth to木
wood(木) can be brunt(火),
fire(火) burns everything to soil(土),
soil contain metals(金),
metals condense dew(水),
water to irrigate plants(木).

黃土居中
yellow colored soil in center.
soil supply ALL resources, just like a king or a god, so it stand for CENTER.
東木,青龍,春
east for wood, for blue/green dragon, for spring.
east is the direction that sun rise, so east stand for birth, stand for life, stand for youth, energy, for spring.
plants face east to growth, and sun is what make plants growth strong, so plants represent east, and green is the color of plants, represent east too.
dragon is a aquatic creature, and the sea in the east of china, so dragon belong to east.
南火,朱雀,夏
south for fire, for red colored bird, for summer.
south part of china is more close to equator, relatively hot then north region that ancient Chinese lives in, so it stand for fire, and summer.
fire generate heat, so fire represents south.
phoenix have to burn himself in fire every 500years in order to get a new life, and ancient Chinese believe there is a bird kind creature in the sun(the biggest fire), so red color bird, or some say phoenix, represents south.
西金,白虎,秋
west for metals, for white tiger, for autumn.
west is the direct that sun goes down, so west stand for death, stand for old age, feels like autumn(tree comes dry and animals begin disappear in autumn).
metals is used to make weapons, axe, ect. to kills, to cut, to destroy something, so metal represents deaths, same as the feeling of sunset, and so belongs to west.
metals reflex light, so white represents west.
there are tiger lives in the west part of china, so tiger for west.
ancient Chinese will war at autumn normally(if you start a war not at autumn, you will be said as a bad king) since it is a season for death, for killing,.
北黑,玄武,冬
north for water, for black turtles, for winter.
northern part of china laid many snow mountain.(ancient Chinese most active in the northeast part of today's china map, and also the region between two river), snow for water, for winter.
compare to to snow mt., river seems having dark color, Chinese called the northern part of china, a world of 白山黑水.
for turtles... we all know what turtles act in myth, and what turtles imply in Chinese culture, but i cant just find out why it stand for north...


after knowing above, you will found 5 elements is just the elements of every part of Chinese culture.
some funny e.g. related to 5 elements:
->劉備,字玄德。
with his 字, "玄德", we can know what his name "備" means. 玄(black, with some reddish)is the color of water, "玄德" means "水德", the moral conduct of water.
the moral conduct of water is just perfectly flawless, and 備 can means fully, perfectly flawless (完備).
so 劉備 means (the one who desire the named for him wants) he having a perfectly flawless moral conduct like water.
->東西 stand for "things".
you just cant explain why "east west" means "things".
in 5 elements, 火金水火is used to represents 4 directions,
水(water) and 火(fire) is not able to hold in heads,
only 木(wood, east) and 金(metal, west) can hold in hands, so 東西 means "things(that you may hold in hand)"
->玄武門之變
every gate of royal city named with special meanings. 玄武for north, so 玄武門 is the most northern gate of the royal city. next to 玄武門 is the place where royal family lives, that "變" (event) happens next to it.
only by this event's name, without any history books, you can know, it is a event happens within the royal family, guess may be a fight for crown?
yes, that's the smaller brother kills the elder one, and get the crown.(唐太宗李世民)
->金水橋
it is the name of the river which flows in front of 太和殿 of forbidden city.
this name is not only means "金生水" (metals give birth to water),
but the river flows from west, 金水 means "water from west".
so it is a name that having double meaning.
->白玉台(foundation made by white jade)
that’s what laid under the big 3 hall of forbidden city, with a shape of chinese word "土".
黃土居中, yellow soil stand for center, that 土 shape foundation is the center of the whole forbidden city.
anything come from earth, ground, soil, so the only one who can stands on 土 shape foundation is the king.
木克土, wood defeat soil, and so you cant find any plants on that foundation.
水生木, water give birth to wood, so you can see there are so many drainage system on that foundation, in order not to let water stay on it.
->朱雀橋邊野草花,烏衣巷口夕陽斜。
that’s a famous poem, but little notes that 朱雀橋 is just a contrast to 烏衣巷 in color(red, south, to black, north).
and the 朱雀橋 is out of the city, and 烏衣巷 is inside the city,
so 朱雀橋 and 烏衣巷 is a pair of double contrast.


i think this is almost there for 5 elements...
if i forget to explain something common, please say it out.



Intresting post. Unfortunately i do not read chinese so cant follow all of it. I am curious as to what the english name for the text you mention above and which dyanasty you refer to above. This is a subject i have done some extensive research on (limited by not speaking chinese) and all indications are that the wu xing are not quite as 'ancient' as many people assume. As a fully formed/developed system you are looking at late warring states; may be 350-300 BC or later. One of the first mentions of wu xing is in Mencius and is limited to 5 moral principles. Some mid warring states military teatsies (350BC?) refer to 5 soils and a conquest cycle. These are as to date the earlist known references to wu xing. The most reasonable current thinking is that wu xing in large developed from the earlier sifang system of the Shang. Which was largley involved with sacrificial practice/diviniation and ordering temporal systems on some heavenly model? Most creation stories and most myths of early chinese origins werre written in and were creations of the Han dyansty.

#7 sylvester

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 07:21 AM

Unfortunately, i can not read phonetic transcription very well, and i can not write any.
the classic i qoute at the beginning is "the classic of mountain and sea", i dont know if it translated this way,
but thats what the chinese name of the book means.

as you said, "Most creation stories and most myths of early chinese origins werre written in and were creations of the Han dyansty". that "classic of mountains and seas" were so called "written in the period of 3 king and 5 emperor", but schoclar found it should not be so early,
it should be written by few people, in few period, from 戰國 period(i really dont know how it's phonetic transcription should be... that's the period before HAN and before QING2 dynasty) to Han.

Edited by sylvester, 21 February 2008 - 07:22 AM.

萬物靜觀皆自得,四時佳興與人同。

#8 kaiselin

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 09:13 AM

Unfortunately, i can not read phonetic transcription very well, and i can not write any.
the classic i qoute at the beginning is "the classic of mountain and sea", i dont know if it translated this way,
but thats what the chinese name of the book means.

as you said, "Most creation stories and most myths of early chinese origins werre written in and were creations of the Han dyansty". that "classic of mountains and seas" were so called "written in the period of 3 king and 5 emperor", but schoclar found it should not be so early,
it should be written by few people, in few period, from 戰國 period(i really dont know how it's phonetic transcription should be... that's the period before HAN and before QING2 dynasty) to Han.


戰國 zhàn guó period in history, called Warring Kingdoms (403-221 B.C.)

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#9 Bao Pu

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 06:55 PM

Hi Sylvester,

There are a couple other threads about Wuxing, which most scholars translate as the Five Phases, and not elements.
See HERE and HERE.
May you enjoy good health, harmony and happiness.
Posted Image Posted Image

#10 Pattie

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 03:27 PM

Hi Sylvester,

There are a couple other threads about Wuxing, which most scholars translate as the Five Phases, and not elements.
See HERE and HERE.


And here's another recently resurrected.
Cheers,
 

Pattie


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#11 madalibi

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 10:46 PM

Several new posts by Bao Pu and madalibi in this thread also discuss the notions of Wuxing 五行 ("Five Phases," but also "Five Conducts") and Wude 五德 ("Five Virtues," "Five Potencies," or even "Five Rewards," as Bao Pu suggests). In many texts from the "Warring States" or "Warring Kingdoms" period, Wude 五德 referred to Fire, Water, etc. (now called Wuxing 五行) and they were presented in the "mutual conquest" order: Fire, Water, Earth, Wood, Metal. The "mutual production" order (Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water) emerged later, though I'm not sure when.

#12 DeanW

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 01:11 PM

The 5 Elements also is used in a number of traditional Chinese martial arts. Perhaps the best know martial arts use is in the art of Xingyiquan-(形意拳) Form Mind Boxing. In that system each of the 5 main techniques:
Splitting Fist (劈拳)
Drilling Fist (鑽拳)
Crushing Fist (崩拳)
Pounding Fist (炮拳)
Crossing Fist (橫拳)
are matched up to one of the Five Elements.

Take care,
Brian

I know this is an old thread, but I am very much interested in such things. I am familiar with the Five Elements as, Brian L. Kennedy, mentioned.
Dean

#13 DhaMo

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 09:41 PM

Pesonally, I am hoping that as China settles back into being an established, leading civilisation again that her people are well educated in more of the root texts and traditions. People studying Chinese Medicine still have access to traditional materials but I suspect this is not the case in general education. No Chinese person should be getting the equivalent of MA's and PhD's without being thoroughly educated in classic daoist principles. Why do I say this? Because they are some of the most profound and practical that humans have developed and they could work to improve the sciences, arts, government, military, agriculture and so forth.

As to the Five Elements. First, one of the best pithy but relatively brief introductions to daoist theory is Master Hua Ching-Ni's introduction to his translation of the I-Ching. He comes from a family that helped develop it and has great feeling for that text, but his general introduction is comprehensive and fascinating.

The Five Elements are the next step in a logical progression. The materials above give an excellent synopsis of the material from a classical source. But what comes before them?

OK, first you have nothing which is before anything.
Then you have something - creation, experience, life etc.

At the point you have something there is two already. This is the birth of yin and yang right there.

But once you have yin and yang there is three, because there is relationship between yin and yang, with yang sometimes being the strongest and/or yin being the strongest. Or you could say there is energy, because things are always oscillating. Breathing, change, up or down, i.e. relationship between these various 'two's'.

But with three you have four.

The four goes like this:

Imagine drawing a circle starting at the bottom and going clockwise from the bottom to the top and back to the bottom again.

(Yang is rising and Yin is falling:)

From the bottom to halfway up is 'weak yang', and from halfway up to the top is 'strong yang', and from the top to halfway down is 'weak yin' and from halfway down to the bottom is 'strong yin'.

This is not super-sophisticated abstract theory for the sake of it, rather superb, pithy common sense. Because where there is ongoing flux and 'relationship' there are differing qualities continuously, but they are not infinite on some level because they never depart from the basic original Two or yin-yang, just as the millions of different colours can be derived from the mixing of three primaries.

Now the 5 elements come in thusly:

Four of the 5 were described above. The 5th is the central aspect, the 'basis' or 'balance' or 'harmonising' or simply 'central'.

Back to our imagined circle:

If you are in the very bottom, i.e. extreme yin, that is relative to extreme yang. That 'relationship' energetically speaking is what is at the centre now.
This does not make sense even though I know what I mean. I try again:

By the time we are dealing with the Five, we are talking about full-blown experience. The absolute level is only at the One. The Two is somewhat on the level of primordial principles, not entity per se. Also three is somewhat the same. But with Four and Five we are dealing with energy shifts in the world. This is true for both animate and inanimate, i.e. this fourfold analysis can be applied to anything, i.e. a wave, a rock, a breath of wind, a moment in time, a life form, a story. Anything that comes into being, any energy.

So let us say we are dealing with human level experience here, something simple like vitality level, energy level.

The organism has some 'central' reality or core, some point of balance in relation to which it goes through oscillations around that, from extreme yin at the bottom of the circle to extreme yang at the top and all progressions in between.

The genius of the 5 element theory as it develops further is that of adding in the supportive/mother relationship and the conflicting/spouse relationships to the various elements as they interact during the phases.

For example, in terms of the main Yin organs it goes from the bottom: Kidneys (water) are the mother of Liver (wood) is the mother of Heart (fire) is the mother of Stomach(Earth) is the mother of Lung(metal) is the mother of Kidneys.

Here you see there is a leap from the Earth being in the middle of the circle in relation to all other four and putting into the cycle. Some purists say this is a perversion of the underlying logic and indeed some medical systems use the Stomach/Spleen as a form of centre and relate the other four organs to it accordingly rather than forcing a circular progression. But that is a niggly point not relevant here! The insight is that sometimes energy leads (mothers) the next energy but at the same time that yang is increasing, for example, that means that yin is being depleted from somewhere else. Like when water spashes from side to side in a tub, one side is going up because the other side is going down, so the side that is going up (yang rising) is making the other side have yin increasing. In this sense the opposite side is counterbalancing or 'controlling' or 'in conflict' with the side going up. It's not a perfect analogy, but in medical terms again it is said that the Liver and Lung are often in conflict in that the Lung is the 'controller' of the Liver, it regulates it, limits it, contains it.

So the Kidney/water supports/nourishes the Liver/wood and meanwhile the Lung/metal 'restricts' it. Lung/metal is Yin/contraction/distillation/concentration/narrowing/intensifying whereas Liver/wood is Strong Yang leading up to Most Yang Heart/Fire, so Liver/wood/yang is upward, freedom from constriction, growth, movement, heat, dispersion, expansion, relaxing and warming etc. So naturally if the Liver energy is increasing it will be in relation to the Lung energy which is in some sense it's 'opposite' and it cannot just go on increasing and expanding forever because that way the Lung energy will be reduced to nothing and the person in question will die. The balance between them all in our original circle was Earth/Central.

To conclude, I was just trying to point out the logical, common sense progression from nothing/something, ying/yang, relationship and the main circle of any energy form from weak yang to strong yang to weak yin to strong yin and that the 5 elements is the inter-relationship of those four main 'phases' or 'Chings' (as in the I-Ching).

It is my suspicion that a better translation for 'Ching' in the I-Ching would be 'energy' rather than 'change'. Or in more modern terms maybe even 'process' although that has an overly conceptual/analytical tone.

Anyway, hope this is of interest!

Edited by DhaMo, 18 December 2008 - 09:54 PM.





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