157 replies to this topic

[ih8eurocentrix]

ive heard of giant crossbows etc can anyone tell me about these types of weapons

[General_Zhaoyun]

These giant crossbows are called Shenbi Nu 神臂弩 if I'm not wrong..

There is also the chinese trebuchet called Hui Hui Pao 回回炮, which was deployed by the Mongolian Yuan when attacking the city of Xianyang in 1279.

[Yun]

The main weapons were man-powered trebuchets, mobile siege towers, mobile rams, and large siege crossbows.

The best layman source you can refer to in English is Stephen Turnbull's "Siege Weapons of the Far East, Volume 1", published by Osprey. For something much more technical and advanced, look at Joseph Needham's "Science and Civilisation in China, Volume 5 Part 6 (Military Technology: Missiles and Sieges)".

These giant crossbows are called Shenbi Nu 神臂弩 if I'm not wrong..

No, they were called Chuangzi Nu 床子弩. The Shenbi Nu was a one-man infantry weapon, just a normal-sized crossbow with extra range.

There is also the chinese trebuchet called Hui Hui Pao 回回炮, which was deployed by the Mongolian Yuan when attacking the city of Xianyang in 1279.

The Huihui Pao or Xiangyang Pao was not a Chinese invention, but an Arab Muslim one (hence 'Huihui' meaning Muslim) that the Mongols brought to China. The Chinese invented the traction (man-powered) trebuchet, which spread west and got improved to the counterweight trebuchet (Huihui Pao).

[Liang Jieming]

Here's a few images I have.


Mortar


Continuous Flamethrower


Multiple rocket launcher


Battery of traction catapults


Wheeled traction catapult


Triple bow siege crossbow


Winged Rocket with traction trebuchet in the background

Just a sampling of various types across the board.

Jieming

[thirdgumi]

I like that Multiple rocket launcher, reminds me of that US made MRL.

[Wú Fēi]

Thanks for Liang Jieming's Help!
I can finally post the pictures for Jieming share his cyberspace with me.
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巢车 (Chao2 Che1, Nest Vehicle)
It was possibly invented in Tang Dynasty, to play as a armored vehicle to watch the situation in the city/fortress, with a lift carriage covered with cowskin.

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冲车 (Chong1 Che1, Assault Vehicle)
It is said that Zhuge Liang (诸葛·亮) invented the vehicle, to assault the city of Chen2 Cang1 (陈仓).

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炮车 (Pao4 Che1, Camion/Cannon Vehicle)
“佛朗机” Cannon in Ming Dynasty. (I don't know 佛朗机's English spelling.)

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虎车 (Hu3 Che1, Tiger Vehicle)
It was possibly a equipment of defence used in the street battle with its cover of leather.

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火箭车 (Huo3 Jian4 Che1, Fire Arrows Vehicle)
In field operations Ming troops put the vehicles in front to defend themselves.

[Liang Jieming]

I can't seem to open your links.

Send the images to me to my e-mail address. I'll help you post them here.

kitmengleong@yahoo.com


Jieming

[Sephodwyrm]

Actually the battering ram is already around since the Spring and Autumn era when taking fortresses became a goal in warfare. However, I still give some credits to Zhuge Liang for covering the ram with some sort of shielding to protect the troops from arrow fire. It was defeated by Hao Zhao with huge boulders, though.

[Wú Fēi]

The rest part of the pictures.
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流马 (Liu2 Ma3, Flowing Horse)
It is said that Zhuge Liang invented this kind of transport vechicle.

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洞屋车 (Dong4 Wu1 Che1, House Vehicle)
It was used by Hou2 Jing3 (侯景) to capture the city of Jian Kang (健康). The roof of the vehicle was a "shield" to prevent arrows and stones.

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偏箱车 (Pian1 Xiang1 Che1, Partial Boarding Vehicle)
It was used by Qi Jiguang (戚继光) as a kind of blindage to defend soldiers against Mongols.

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正箱车 (Zheng4 Xiang1 Che1, Boarding Vehicle)
It was another kind of 偏箱车 used to assault.

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塞门车 (Se4 Men2 Che1, Gate Stuffing Vehicle)
It was used to stuff as the city gate when the gate was broken.

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塞门刀车 (Se4 Men2 Dao1 Che1, Gate Stuffing Vehicle with Swords)
It was an amelioration of 塞门车 to avoid enemy climbing.

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云梯车 (Yun2 Ti1 Che1, Scaling Ladder Vehicle)
It was a compositive ladder with winches, shields and hooks.

[Liang Jieming]

How was the 流马 used?


Here's more.


Fire Oxen!


Explosive dummy rider


Single Traction catapult


Surface skimming double-staged naval rocket


Early mounted Cannon (mount is like a catapult mount)


Ming dynasty cannon on wheels. Probably used at fixed defences like walls and forts.

[Kenneth]

Anyone care to supply evidence for that stealth fighter winged rocket contraption?.

Many of the other images looklike contemporary drawings to the seige weapon but the evidence for that ancient Chinese F117 needs qualifying.......also dating to a dynasty.

[TMPikachu]

I think it's Song dynasty.

Don't forget the anti-battering ram device- hanging a mattress over the gate.

How painfully simple.

[Yun]

How was the 流马 used?

It's simply a wheelbarrow, the usual explanation for the "wooden ox" and "rolling horse" that Zhuge Liang developed to carry supplies for his army. Read an alternative explanation here: http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=781

So it isn't directly related to siege warfare.

Anyone care to supply evidence for that stealth fighter winged rocket contraption?.

Many of the other images looklike contemporary drawings to the seige weapon but the evidence for that ancient Chinese F117 needs qualifying.......also dating to a dynasty.

It's the "flying crow with magic fire" from Stephen Turnbull's "Siege Weapons of the Far East, Volume 2" published by Opsrey, and this book has the irritating problem of giving neither references nor a bibliography. Here is Turnbull's quotation from an unknown source:

"The body is made of bamboo laths forming an elongated basketwork, in size and shape like a chicken, weighing over a katty (1.3lb). It has paper glued over it to strengthen it, and it is filled with explosive gunpowder. All is sealed up using more paper, with head and tail fixed on before and behind, and the two wings nailed firmly to both sides, so that it looks like a flying crow. Under each wing there are to rockets. The fourfold fuse, connected with the rockets, is put through a hole drilled on the back. When in use, this is lit first. The bird flies away more than 1,000 ft, and eventually falls to the ground, the explosive gunpowder in the cavity of the bird is [automatically] lit, and the flash can be seen miles away."

Ralph Sawyer, who is generally more reliable than Turnbull, also describes bird-shaped explosive devices in his "Fire and Water: The Art of Incendiary and Aquatic Warfare in China". He first cites the Taibai Yinjing and Dengtan Bijiu, Tang and Ming military manuals respectively, that mention the use of "fire birds" - real birds like sparrows with burning moxa-filled nuts tied to their necks or feet, which are supposed to fly into the fortress and set buildings alight. Fire chickens were also used by driving them into grass around the enemy camp.

Sawyer then cites the Ming military manual Wubei Zhi regarding "two artificial birds designed to float into enemy cities and encampments. Melding kite experience and explosive technology, they were produced in two dramatically different sizes. The smallest, probably about as large as a Western pigeon, were simply small spheres with wings intended to be launched into cities where they would burst, spraying a small quantity of burning material onto troops and structures, as well as blinding them with smoke. However, they might also be used against troop deployments, the range being limited only by the strength of the wind (and length of their fuses).

The second, called a "spiritual fire flying duck", was considerably larger and depended upon four rockets mounted beneath the wings, two to a side, for lift. The bird's core was an explosive sphere fashioned into an appropriately elongated shape that would detonate while over the enemy's encampment with a brilliant flash, igniting fires. Said to have a range of over 1,000 zhang (800 Western feet), it was considered invincible in riverine conflict because it could easily set enemy boats (and no doubt bamboo sails) afire. Whether it was ever fabricated and deployed requires further research, for it is an odd contraption more expressive of simplistic thinking - flight means wings, therefore imitate birds - than weapons development, especially since rockets and large rocket-powered incendiary arrows already existed."

I suspect that Turnbull's "flying crow with magic fire" (神火飞鸦) and Sawyer's "spiritual fire flying duck" (神火飞鸭) are one and the same thing, and one of these two writers (most likely Turnbull) has mistranslated a character since 鸦 and 鸭 both read "ya".

[Edit: An old thread on these flying bombs and the principles of flight: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1541 ]

[Liang Jieming]

I think it's Song dynasty.

Don't forget the anti-battering ram device- hanging a mattress over the gate.

How painfully simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hehehe, ya and those things I don't know the name for that are just huge square blocks with blades which they throw down from the walls to stomp and kill enemy soldiers only to be winched back up to be thrown again! *Stomp* *stomp*

[Yun]

Hehehe, ya and those things I don't know the name for that are just huge square blocks with blades which they throw down from the walls to stomp and kill enemy soldiers only to be winched back up to be thrown again! *Stomp* *stomp*

Those are known by the wonderfully evocative name of 狼牙拍 Langya Pai (Wolf's Teeth Swatter).