5 replies to this topic

[Bao Pu]

Hi

I came across this passage from the Huainanzi chapter 10: 老子學商容，見舌而知守柔矣. I believe it says something like: "Lao Zi learned from Shang Rong, seeing the tongue, knew to abide by the soft and pliant." All I know of Shang Rong 商容 is that he lived back in the Shang Dynasty or before. Does anyone know more?

thank you

[Wú Fēi]

《吕氏春秋·慎大篇》：“表商容之闾”，高诱注：“商容，殷之贤人，老子师也。”商、常，容、枞，音近而误。《淮南·主术训》“表商容之闾”注：“同缪称训，老子学商容，见舌而知守柔矣。”《吕氏春秋·离谓篇》“箕子、商容以此穷”注：“商容，纣时贤人，老子所从学也。”
For it was written in ancient style of language, I can't give the translation.
It's from the following url:
http://www.confucius...o/fsmlz5000.htm

I searched in the internet and found nothing in official 24 history books that said Shang Rong (商容) was the teacher of Lao Tsu (老子), but an minister in the later period of Shang (商) Dynasty. He was killed by his monarch, Zhou (纣).

==================================
Thanks for Yun's warning. I've corrected my mistake

Edited by Wú Fēi, 18 January 2005 - 11:19 AM.

[Yun]

商容，殷之贤人，老子师也: Shang Rong, a virtuous man of the Yin (Shang) dynasty, and teacher of Laozi.

商容，纣时贤人，老子所从学也: Shang Rong, a virtuous man in the reign of King Zhou of the Shang dynasty, whom Laozi was a student of.

(both are annotations from the Lushi Chunqiu)

I think Wu Fei made a mistake regarding the name of the monarch who killed Shang Rong - it should be Zhou 纣, last King of Shang, and not Jie 桀, who was the last King of Xia.

[Wú Fēi]

I think Wu Fei made a mistake regarding the name of the monarch who killed Shang Rong - it should be Zhou 纣, last King of Shang, and not Jie 桀, who was the last King of Xia.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, it's a BIG mistake I made.
Yes, it was 纣 who killed Shang Rong.
I'm going to correct my post.

[Bao Pu]

Thanks Yun and Wu Fei

Yes, I doubt that Shang Rong taught Lao Zi. (In fact, I doubt Lao Zi was a person at all, or if he was, had little to do with the Daodejing.)

Shang Rong is only mentioned twice in the Lüshi Chunqiu, but both convey very little information. They do not mention Shang Rong in connection with Lao Zi.

Where might Shang Rong's story be? In the Shangshu perhaps?

So far, all I know is that he was a viruous man who met with a bad end.

[Wú Fēi]

Several versions there.
I think as a historical man, his record in 《史记·殷本纪》(Shi Ji. Yin Ben Ji) is credible correspondingly. He was only recorded as the following:
"商容賢者，百姓愛之，紂廢之。"
(Zhou4 killed Shang Rong, who was a virtuous man and loved by common people.)
"周武王遂斬紂頭，懸之白旗。殺妲己。釋箕子之囚，封比干之墓，表商容之閭。"
(Therewith, Zhou1 Wu3 Wang2 cut Zhou4's head and hung it on the white flag. Then he also killed Da2 Ji3. He set free Ji1 Zi3, stacked soil to build Bi3 Gan4's grave, and commended Shang Rong's gate/grave lane.)
I'm not sure if the character of "閭" was referred to "gate" or "grave lane", since it had both of the meanings in ancient time.