210 replies to this topic

[Moping4U]

Can someone tell me the details of Ming Dynasty involvement in the Imjin War in Korea? The armies, generals, tactics, weapons, battles, casualties? Anything.

[Yun]

For starters, you can read Stephen Turnbull's "Samurai Invasion: Japan's Korean War 1592-1598", although that is rather biased against the Ming armies.

[Yang Zongbao]

Pssh, I don't mean to sound extremely antagonistic, but Steven Turnbull seems to hold everyone in low regard to the Samurai. The Emails between the Director of SPATHA and Steven Turnbull pretty much show this, that he believes the myth of the Uberwarrior Samurai and the Ubersword Katana.

http://forums.swordf...&threadid=10748

[浪淘音]

the book is extremely biased against Ming armies.

1) insisted that Ming armies' only tactic was "human wave assaults"
2) "superior" Japanese military technology IE he seemed to overlook the fact that Ming China was using cannons,firearms,grenades,etc
3) ignored Chinese sources despite China's huge role in the war

[Yang Zongbao]

Indeed, it makes me bristle at how much people seem to think that
1) Chinese weaponry is c**p
2) Japanese Weaponry is godly
3) China only used Human Waves of Peasants

Stephen Turnbull seems to have quite a bit against the Chinese. That, or he is very ignorant.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Please, what Human waves? These are drawn from Korean sources, I doubt Turnball even glanced at a single Chinese source. The Ming troops used strategy to capture PyongYang, by wearing Korean troop battle uniform since the Chosun soldier are known to have less fighting capabilities, while Ming placed different forces on the different direction of the city, the Japanese were underestimating the Ming troops of the western gate because they thought they were Chosun troops, yet it was precisely this army that stormed the city and when they got to the top took of their Chosun uniform and revealed the red Ming uniforms and shocked the Japanese, while the Japanese were ordering troops from other quarters to aid, the other sides also stormed the city. The remainder Japanese garrison eascpaed to different direction, one of which was ambushed and annihilated by the general who set the trap at one of the gates.
The Ming army was around 100,000 strong, the Japanese invasion force was as folows:

The Japanese campaign of Korea is organized into ten contingents as follows:

First Contingent (Kyushu)
Konishi(leading general): 7,000
So: 5,000
Matsura: 3,000
Arima: 2000
Omura: 1000
Goto: 700
Total force: 18,700

Second Contingent (Kyushu)
Kato Kiyomasa(leading general): 8000
Nabeshima: 12,000
Sagara: 800
Total force: 20,800

Third Contingent
Kuroda Nagamasa: 6000
Otomo Yoshimune: 6000
Total force: 12,000

Forth Contingent (Kyushu)
Shimadzu Yoshihiro: 10,000
Mori Yoshinari: 2000
Takahashi: 2000
Akizuki: 1000
Ito: 1000
Shimazu Tadatoyo: 1,000
Total force: 17,000

Fifth contingent (Shikoku
Fukushima: 10,000
Toda: 4000
Hachisuka: 7,200
Chosokabe: 3,000
Ikoma: 5,500
Total force 24,700


Sixth contingent (Kyushu)

Kobayakawa: 10,000
Mori Hidekane: 1,500
Tachibana: 2,500
Takahashi Motosugu: 800
Tsukushi: 900
Total force: 15,700

Seventh Contingent:
Mori Terumoto, Kikkawa, Mori Motoyasu: total force: 30,000

Combined force: 138,900

The above seven contigents were to start first and open roads to China.


8th contingent
Ukida Hideiye: 10,000
Masuda(Bugyo): 3,000
Ishida(Bugyo): 2000
Otani: 1200
Mayeno: 2000
Kato Mitsuyasu: 1000
Total Force: 19,200

9th contingent
Asano(Bugyo): 3000
Miyabe: 1000
Nanjo: 1500
Kinoshita: 850
Nakagawa: 3,000
Inaba: 1,400
Total Force: 10,750

10th contingent
Hashiba Hidekatsu: 8000
Hashiba Tadaoki: 3500
Hasegawa: 5000
Kimura: 3500
Onogi:
Kamei: 1000
Total force: 22,000

Combined force: 51,950

The above three contingents were to enter Korea after the preceding seven contingents.

Total land force: 190,850


Naval Forces
Kuki: 1,500
Todo: 2000
Wakizaka: 1500
Kato Yoshiaki: 1000
Kurushima: 700
Suga: 250

Total naval force: 6,950

Other small forces also accompanies them.

The Seibatsu Ki says that all together, 208,650 men crossed over to Korea and only 97,460 remained at Nagoya.
The Tensho Ki gives number of troops in Korea as 201,000 and those remained at Nagoya as 102,300 a total of 303,500.
The Taiko Ki gives total troops who crossed Korea as 205,570 and those remained at Nagoya as 102,450 making a grand total of 307,985.
In any case it would seem some 2/3 of the entire Japanese force were in Korea, showing the large effort that Hideoshi had to subdue to continent, also most of the troops that left behind were his own, it also shows his method of weakening the various Daimyos and sent their troops to war.
Those troops that were left behind in Nagoya, some 28,00 belonging to Hideoshi and 74,000 troops belonging to Eastern and Northern Daimyos were to remain as a provision against any possible attack from China.

In fact there were more Japanese troops than Ming troops in the first invasion and the Ming still pushed them back although with considerable weight taken by the Korean guerillas.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

The background of the war can be traced to the relationship of Korea and Japan of the time. During this time Korea and Japan are on terms of equality while Korea was under the protection of the Celestial Empire since the creation of Choson. Embassies bearing letters and presents were periodically exchanged between Japan and Korea. Some time between 1418 and 1450 Japanese traders from Tsushima had granted settlements of 60 houses at each ports of Che Pho, Fusan, and Yom-Pho; but they came over in greater numbers than provided for and in 1510 they rose against the Korean authorities, the Choson authorities crushed the rebellion and took 295 heads, the survivors were compelled to withdrew. For some time after this, little intercourse between the two nations resulted, although few Japanese returned to settle. However, in 1572, the Japanese sent a friendly message, requesting resumption of old relations, and as Fusan supported the request, they were permitted to resume operations in Fusan only, 3 li below the prefecture. From then on former relationship has been renewed, only no envoys were sent. Choson made it clear, any Japanese landing anywhere except Fusan would be treated as pirates.
In 1587, Hideoshi sent a messenger to Seoul to complain of the non appearance of Korean embassies in Japan, and to demandthat they should be sent in future. The envoy was Yuya Yasuhiro, vassal of So Yoshitoshi, Daimyo of Tsushima, he carried back a polite note from the Choson king in response to Hideoshi’s harsh words. On it the king stated that journey by sea was long, and Koreans were not good sailors, he would have to be excused from complying with the demand. Yuya and his family were put to death not for his failure in his mission but because he and his brother had accepted official titles from the Korean King some time before, and he acted too favorably to the Koreans. Next spring another mission was sent, consisting of So, Daimyo of Tsushima himself, Yanagawa his retainer, and a monk Genso. At first the Choson court did nottake notice of them, then finally told them envoys would be sent on one condition; Japan should seize and send to Korea some dozen Koeran renegades under the leadership of Sa Wha Dong that fled to Japan, and since then had acted as guides to Japanese pirate in their descents on Korean coasts. This was agreed.
In April 1590, the king sent an envoy to Japan, in company with So and his companions.
At first Hideoshi did not reply to the letter of the Korean King and suggested they sould return without an answer. They refused and after waiting in Saki for a long time, they received a reply letter from Hideoshi, which reads as follows:

“This Empire has of late years been brought to ruin by internal dissensions which allowed no opportunity for laying aside armour. This state of things roused me to indignation, and in a few years I restore peace to the country. I am the only remaining scion of a humble stock, but my mother once had a dream in which she saw the sun enter her bosom, after whichshegave birth to me. There was then a soothsayer, who said ‘wheever the sun shines, there will be no place which shall not be subject to him. It has therefore been my boast to lose no favorable opportunity, and taking winds like a dragon, I have subdued the East, chastised the west, punished the south, and smitten the north. Speedy and great success has attended my career, which has been like the rising sun illuminating the whole earth.
“When I reflect that the life of man is less than one hundred years why sould I spend the rest of my days in sorrow for one thing only?(He recently lost his son, Tsurumatsu) I will assemble a mighty host, and , invading the country of the Great Ming.
I will fill with the hoar frost from my sword the whole sky over the 400 provinces. Should I carry out this purpose, I hope that Korea will be my vanguard. Let her not fail to do so, for my friendship with your honourable country depends solely on your conduct when I lead my army against China.”

The envoys returned with Yanagawa and the monk Genso. At Korea Yanagawa’s conduct were very untactful. AtTai Kou he insulted the aged Governor, saying to him: “For 10 years I have followed the war, and thus my beard is grey why should you grow old?”b Again, he called for a Korean Spear and said “Your spears are too long,” insinuating that Koreans were cowards. He threw oranges at dancing girls, and when they scrambled for them he told the bystanders, “Your nation is doomed, You have no manners.” At a banquet in Seoul, the monk Genso whispered to the senior envoy “The reason why Hideyoshi wants to attack China is because the Emperor refuses to receive Japanese envoy. If Koera leaves us but a clear road to China, we will ask nothing else. No troops need be given.” The Korea replied that China was the mother country, and that Korea could not desert her as a road to an invading army. Then the monk said that Korea had allowed the Yuan dynasty to attack Japan 300 years before, she should now do as much for Japan when Japan is seeking revenge on China. It became clear that if Japan were to go through Korea, they would need to cut one for themselves.
The Korean King returned a letter to Japan as follows:
“Two letters have already passed between us, and the matter has been sufficiently discussed. What talk is this of our joining you against China? From the earliest times we have followed the law and right. From within and without, all lands are subject to China. If you have desired to send your envoys to China, how much more should we? When we have been unfortunate she has helped us. The relationships which subsist between us are those of parent and Child. This you well know. Can we desert both Emperor and parent to join you? You doubtless will be angry at this, and it is because you have not been admitted to the court of China. Why is it that you are not willing to admit the suzerainty of the Emperor instead of harbouring such hostile intents against him? This truly passes our comprehension.”

Hideoshi was enraged at the indifference to his overtures and was partically indignant because the Korean King said to the envoys that his project of conquering China was like “ measuring the ocean in a cockle shell,” or “ a bee trying to sting a tortoise through its armour.”


Meanwhile, a Ming messenger had arrived in Seoul to investigate the problem. The Ming had received the message of Japanese ambition through another country: Liu Qiu (which was also a vassal of the Ming)
Hideyoshi had sent the king of Liu Qiu a peremptory message through the Daimyo of Satsuma commanding him to pay tribute to Japan. Liu Qiu had neither an army or navy. And the entire country was based on the words “good faith and courtesy” while the King was young. So “For the sake of peace, therefore, he sent to Hideoshi and envoy with shiploads of presents, which the latter was pleased to retrieve very graciously. Hideyoshi condescended personally to impress him the advantages Liu Qiu would derive from placing itself under Japanese protection, and ceasing its vassalage to China.
The king of Liu Qiu requited Hideyoshi’s candour by at once dispatching a warning message to the Chinese Government.

Japan has been fully mobilized for war when Korea still just received the message, Ming Empire did not even know the Japanese intentions and would not know it until the whole of Korea was nearly overran.
However Korea did have an advantage over Japan, the Japanese were superior on land but the Koreans were always superior at sea, this would prove fatal to later Japanese supplies.

Konish, Lord of Southern Higo and Kato Kiyomasa were the leading generals.
Konishi had the best of start from Tsushima, and landed on Korea when Kato was still invoking his Hotoke for a favouring wind to swell his limp and empty sails. The early morning of 24th of May, 1592 was misty, and seizing that opportunity to elude the formidable Korean Cruisers, got his division on board and got across some 50 miles of salt water between him and Fusan. The first invasion has now began.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Great Article....

[Kulong]

Yes, very interesting.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Just a note that I thought was interesting. According to Turnbull, the so called Samurai expert, the Imjin Waeran set the path for the Manchu conquest of Ming and Joseon.


Edit: Elaborating more on what warhead said about Krn and Japanese millitaries... Korean Army just plaine sucked. The corrupt officials didn't really care much for the army and it fell into sickening ruin. And their decision not the utilize the Arquebuse is just embarrassing. On the otherhand, the Japanese navy was c**p too...they still relied on boarding tactics. Naval battles were like land battles on floating platforms to them.

[Yang Zongbao]

An excellent Article, warhead!

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"Just a note that I thought was interesting. According to Turnbull, the so called Samurai expert, the Imjin Waeran set the path for the Manchu conquest of Ming and Joseon."

Nonsense, it did weaken Ming's northeastern defense, but nothing more. The troops depatched by Ming to Japan was but a fraction of its total standing army which numbered 845,000. In fact Ming was fighting 3 major wars during this this period, Imjin was just one of them. One of the other two in the South was even more wasteful. Its absolutely ridiculous to say Imjin is the only cause of Ming collapse. Second the Manchu idn't actually conquer Ming, they were led in by Wu San Guei, In fact with or without the Imjin, Li Zhi Chen would still rebel and the Ming would still collapse with Wu San Guei still letting the Manchu in.


"Elaborating more on what warhead said about Krn and Japanese millitaries... Korean Army just plaine sucked. The corrupt officials didn't really care much for the army and it fell into sickening ruin. And their decision not the utilize the Arquebuse is just embarrassing."

The Korean army was poor because it was in such long period of peace, and its fighting capabilities were quite low, but it soon gained experience and its guerillas was quite effective.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Turnbullreally needs to read some Chinese sources. My source are drawn from an older history of Japan.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Oh ok..thanks for elaborating more and the Imjin Waeran/ Manchu conquest theory...

Question...Is Turnbull a respectable source?

[caocao74]

Question...Is Turnbull a respectable source?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's OK if you're a beginner and you just want the story to come from one side. In the Osprey Books his blurb says he is the leading western expert on the samurai. I guess the editor/publisher had never read Varley or Friday.
Generally, I find the Angus McBride artwork is superior to the text, which i have found contains sweeping generalizations and unsubstantiated 'mythology'.