9 replies to this topic

[Zuo Zongtang]

Can someone explain to me his 10 sided ambush (十面埋伏)? I heard someone talking about it in this forum.

I also find Han Xin's early stories funny, such as the time when he was forced to crawl underneth the legs of a bully. My question is, why would he allow such an insult to take place? Why didn't he beat up the guy?

[snowybeagle]

I also find Han Xin's early stories funny, such as the time when he was forced to crawl underneth the legs of a bully. My question is, why would he allow such an insult to take place? Why didn't he beat up the guy?

Because there was nothing for him to gain from winning petty street brawls.

[xiangyu]

Because there was nothing for him to gain from winning petty street brawls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

cause he was a man of no honour.

[snowybeagle]

cause he was a man of no honour.

Who from the period was?

Liu Bang? Nope.
Xiao He? Definitely not.
XiangYu? Naaah.

Zhang Liang? Perhaps, but he's the only one.

[xiangyu]

Who from the period was?

Liu Bang? Nope.
Xiao He? Definitely not.
XiangYu?  Naaah.

Zhang Liang? Perhaps, but he's the only one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

why xiang yu was not, ??

[snowybeagle]

why xiang yu was not, ??

Did he and his army not pillage and plunder XianYang, killing the commoners?
Did he not ordered ZiYing who surrendered to be murdered?
Was he equitable in conferring territories to the other anti-Qin leaders?

Why should XiangYü be considered honourable?

[Shadowfax]

Xiang Yu also ordered to massacre the 200,000 (or was it 400,000 I can't remember) Qin troops who surrendered to him.

Back to the topic, the 10 sided ambush is merely to use an army that outnumbers the enemy to surround the enemy. It's not really surrounding the enemy from 10 different sides, as the name suggested.

[ShuHan]

Did he and his army not pillage and plunder XianYang, killing the commoners?
Did he not ordered ZiYing who surrendered to be murdered?
Was he equitable in conferring territories to the other anti-Qin leaders?

Why should XiangYü be considered honourable?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed these tragedy events did happen, but you must consider that a hero doesn't necessary need to be a person that save someone else life or lives. Remember inorder to save many people lives one must sacrifice some people that is how warfare principles and strategem were to be understood. You must see it in a perspective of a general, but not as a commoner. Yes, Xiang Yu did make terrible mistake in buried many Qin soldiers alive in a place ? (don't know where it's). It was a price that he paid terrible when tried to gain the heart of the people under the Qin. But at the end some people did love him and honor him because of Liu Bang went against his own words. Liu Bang broken the treaty between Chu-Han peace treaty. This is what make Xiang Yu famous because atleast he died honourable.
Han Xin the member please don't believe everything from TVB The Conqueror's Story because it wasn't that accurate. They just make it more dramatic than base it on their own make up then form folk legend and history.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Can someone explain to me his 10 sided ambush (十面埋伏)? I heard someone talking about it in this forum.

I also find Han Xin's early stories funny, such as the time when he was forced to crawl underneth the legs of a bully. My question is, why would he allow such an insult to take place? Why didn't he beat up the guy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "10 sided ambush (十面埋伏)" refers to Han Xin's deployment of strategym to lead and trap Xiangyu's army at Gaixia by attacking/ambushing at 10 places: (if you can read chinese, see battle of Gaixia at http://www.unitedcn.com/01ZGZZ/07XIHAN/new_page_410.htm). The han forces attack from north, west and south forming an encirclement formation forcing Xiangyu's army to retreat to Gaixia where they were trapped by the Han army.

For a good article on Han Xin, please refer to http://www.unitedcn....w_page_2247.htm

For Chu-Han war, please refer to
http://www.unitedcn....ew_page_403.htm

[snowybeagle]

you must consider that a hero doesn't necessary need to be a person that save someone else life or lives.  Remember inorder to save many people lives one must sacrifice some people  that is how warfare principles and strategem were to be understood.  You must see it in a perspective of a general, but not as a commoner.

I agree with what you say in theory. However, I do not see how it is applicable to Xiang Yü. Who were supposed to be saved by the massacre ordered by him? He was already victorious, so the killings made no sense except to satisfy a bloodlust.

But at the end some people did love him and honor him because of Liu Bang went against his own words.  Liu Bang broken the treaty between Chu-Han peace treaty.  This is what make Xiang Yu famous because atleast he died honourable.  

I cannot speak for those people who supported him, but I don't see why he should be in anyway redeemed just because of Liu Bang's treachery against him over and over again.

If you say we have to consider the BIG picture, then Liu Bang's treacherous action was more "justified", it was to consolidate the country into a single state rather than allowing the formation of two rival powers which would imply more wars in the future.

I am not sure how to respond about you saying Xiang Yü died honourably - I think to his last moments, he had no regrets about what he did, nor did he ever realise his mistakes and how the mistakes caused other people to suffer, especially the commoners.

Xiang Yü would have been a great general if he was under a wise person like Zhang Liang. Xiang Yü was too wilful and myopic to accept advice from his own counsellors.

In contrast, Han Xin was a great general who knew how to lead armies as well as take advice for administration. After conquering the state of Zhao (赵), Han Xin humbly sought the advice of captive minister Li ZuoChe (李左车) and persisted in persuading the latter until he consented. Acting on the advice, Han Xin took the state of Yan (燕) without a fight.

Whether he made the correct decision to invade the state of Qi (齐) after it had technically surrendered was another issue.