48 replies to this topic

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"Actually, according to my sources Liu Yao changed the name of the state from Han to Zhao because he had been given the title of Prince of Zhongshan after taking Luoyang for the Han state in 311. But the part about him cutting the ties to the Han imperial house (including the Shu-Han) and reaffirming Modu Chanyu as his ancestor is true."

There isn't that much conflict, Zhong Shang was a xiongnu kingdom or so they think, and thats why he was enfeoffed that. And his kingdom was called Zhao because Zhong Shang was part of Zhao.

[wuTao]

I checked out numerous sources on Thai history at my university's library, and they all confirm Taksin was half Chinese, through his father's side. Apparently, he was one of the greatest warrior kings of Thailand and expanded Thonburi until it's territory was greater than in the time of Ayutthaya! In addition, the first king of the Chakri dynasty was also half Chinese, through his mother's side!

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"Another thing is that Taksin, the Ayyuthaya general who re-founded Siam after the fall of Ayyuthaya to the Burmese in 1767, is believed to have been of Chinese descent. "

Siam never fell, only its capital, that thanks to the Qing invasion of Burma which halted the Burmese advance and conquest of Thailand.

[Yun]

Gaochang (previously the statelet of Cheshi) was first used as the Headquarters of the Western Han protectorate over the Western Regions. It served the same purpose for Eastern Han, Wei, Western Jin, Former Liang, Former Qin, Later Liang, Western Liang and Northern Liang. It continued to be occupied by survivors of the Juqu ruling house of the Northern Liang state after that state was conquered by Northern Wei in 439. These Juqu were probably either Sogdians or Xiongnu. The Juqu regime was destroyed by the Rouran in 460, thereafter, Gaochang was ruled by a succession of ethnic Han vassal kings of the Rouran - the Gan, the Zhang, the Ma and the Ju. In the 550s, the Turkut overthrew the Rouran and placed Gaochang under direct rule, ending the semi-independent Gaochang kingdom.

I just checked up the history of the Gaochang Kingdom, and will have to make some corrections and elaborations here.

In 460, the Juqu 沮渠 Liang 凉 kingdom in Gaochang, formed by more than ten thousand households that had taken refuge here after the conquest of the Northern Liang state by Northern Wei in 439, was finally conquered by the Rouran 柔然.

Rulers of the Gaochang-Liang:
Juqu Wuhui 沮渠无讳 439-444 (younger brother of last Northern Liang king, Juqu Muqian 沮渠牧犍)
Juqu Anzhou 沮渠安周 444-460 (younger brother of Wuhui. Upon his death, the Rouran moved in and conquered Gaochang)

There were more than ten thousand Han households in Gaochang, and the Rouran appointed a Han named Kan Bozhou 阚伯周 as their vassal King of Gaochang.

Kan Bozhou was succeeded by his nephew Kan Shougui 阚首归, but at this time the Gaoche 高车 (Tiele 铁勒) Kingdom was rising to challenge the Rouran khanate in the Tarim Basin. The Gaoche king Afuzhiluo 阿伏至罗 killed Kan Shougui in 491 and appointed a Han from Dunhuang, named Zhang Mengming 张孟明, as his own vassal King of Gaochang. Gaochang thus passed under Gaoche rule.

Before long, Zhang Mengming was killed by the people of Gaochang and replaced by Ma Ru 马儒. In 497, Ma Ru himself was overthrown and killed, and the people of Gaochang appointed Qu Jia 麴嘉 of Jincheng (in Gansu) as their king. Qu Jia at first pledged allegiance to the Rouran, but the Rouran khaghan was soon killed by the Gaoche, and he had to submit to Gaoche overlordship. Later, when the Turkut emerged as the supreme power in the region, the Qu dynasty of Gaochang became vassals of the Turkut. In 640, Gaochang was annexed by the Tang dynasty and renamed Xizhou 西州.

The reigns of the Qu of Gaochang (based on Chinese dynastic histories and archaeological evidence such as inscriptions):

Qu Jia 麴嘉 497-523

Qu Guang 麴光 523-531 (son of Qu Jia)

Qu Jian 麴坚 531-548 (son of Qu Jia)

Qu Xuanxi 麴玄喜 548-554?

Qu Baomao 麴宝茂 554-560

Qu Qiangu 麴乾固 560-601

Qu Boya 麴伯雅 601-613 (son of Qu Jian?)

Unknown usurper 613-619 (overthrew Qu Boya in a coup)

Qu Boya 619-623 (Boya regained his throne with military assistance from the Western Turkut)

Qu Wentai 麴文泰 623-640 (son of Boya)

Qu Zhisheng 麴智盛 640 (son of Wentai. Upon Wentai's death, Zhisheng succeeded to the throne, but the Tang dynasty quickly moved to annex Gaochang.)

[wuTao]

"Another thing is that Taksin, the Ayyuthaya general who re-founded Siam after the fall of Ayyuthaya to the Burmese in 1767, is believed to have been of Chinese descent. "

Siam never fell, only its capital, that thanks to the Qing invasion of Burma which halted the Burmese advance and conquest of Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't see the problem with that statement I made. In David Wyatt's book, "Thailand: A Short History", one of the passages reads:

Following the Burmese destruction of the Kingdom of Ayudhya in 1767, one might have expected a long period of slow recovery and reconstruction during which the Tai world would be fragmented into numerous weak principalities. Quite the opposite happened. Within a decade or so, a new Siam already had succeeded where Naresuan and his Ayudhya predecessors had failed in creating a vast new Siamese empire encompassing Lan Na and much of Lan Song, as well as Cambodia and large portions of the Malay peninsula....

When the Burmese captured Ayudhya in April 1767, the countryside was in a state of great turmoil. No central government and little authority of any kind existed.

Wyatt states that after the destruction of the Kingdom of Ayutthaya, there were 5 main centers of power in 1767. In Phimai, a son of King Borommakot, Prince Thepphiphit, was in control. In Sawangkhaburi, Buddhist monks ruled. A local governor ruled in Phitsanlok and in Nakhon Si Thammarat another local governor descended from generations of rulers of that region claimed was in control. And in the province of Tak, Sin ruled. What else besides the collapse of central authority and political fragmentation is needed before one can claim a country has fallen?

[Sip Pat Ti Nyuk Liung]

Chinese gold mining gongsi that was established in western Kalimantan(Borneo) was called Lan-Fang Republic. This state was founded by Kejia gold miners from Guangdong province. The first head of state was Kejia-ren from Meixian named Luo-Fangpo(Lo-Fongpak but was also called Low-Lanpak). He took the title of governorship that was similar to today's president rather than a king. In this case he served as president 10 years earlier than the first American president. Lan-Fang republic had a good relation with Qing empire.

According to Qing's annals, every year the ships from Lan-Fang state in Nanyang will come to pay tribute and trade around Guangdong coastline. The high ranking officials wore Chinese traditional costume while low ranking official wore western costume. The flag of the president was triangular with the word general written on it. And the system of the election was that the president and vice president has to be Kejia-ren from Jiaying(Meixian) or Dapu.

The state last for 108 years before it got destroyed by Dutch. They fought with the Dutch for 4 years before got defeated. After the Dutch conquered it, the Dutch never declared it had conquered Lan-Fang Republic instead used puppet president to show up every year in Qing empire because the Dutch fear military invasion by Qing Empire if it declared that it had conquered Lan-Fang Republic. Most of the Lan-Fang Kejia-ren fled to Sumatra, Bangka and Belitung island and some from Sumatra fled to Singapore. 1 good example would be Li-Kuanyew grandparents/parents were from Lan-Fang state.

Some people joke and said that Singapore was the second Lan-Fang Republic because it was Li-Kuanyew was decended from those ppeople from Lan-Fang.

[Yun]

Qu Wentai 麴文泰 623-640 (son of Boya)

Qu Zhisheng 麴智盛 640 (son of Wentai. Upon Wentai's death, Zhisheng succeeded to the throne, but the Tang dynasty quickly moved to annex Gaochang.)

Just a correction after reading up more: Qu Wentai actually died of a heart attack when a Tang army showed up to besiege Gaochang in 640. Gaochang had allied with the Western Turkut to raid other Central Asian statelets, and the Tang took advantage of these complaints to march in. Qu Wentai had also refused to show up at the Tang court to pay tribute, citing illness (but then, he really was old and sick). Qu Zhisheng succeeded his father and quickly surrendered.

[MengTzu]

What are some of the foreign kingdoms/states established by Han people, and what are the dates of their existence? By foreign, I mean kindgoms outside the borders of present day China, or that may be partially in the borders of the PRC but ruled as a non-Chinese state. Also, provide what your source is, so that anyone interested can know what sources to look at to investigate further. So far, the ones I know about are:

1. Gija/Jizi Joseon, est. ~300 B.C.-194 B.C. or 1126 B.C.-194 B.C. by Gija/Jizi, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gija and http://en.wikipedia....iki/Gija_Joseon (though I'm not too sure how accurate this is).

300 BC makes no sense. Shang dynasty ended in approximiately 1000 BC.

[lobster]

300 BC makes no sense.  Shang dynasty ended in approximiately 1000 BC.

1122 to be precise.

[yehzhaofeng]

I pinned this topic, because if provides good information for further discussion.

[three_kingdoms]

dang, everyones too scared to say Omlec.

Wut a shame. Maybe the peace links cannot be seen at this level.

[yehzhaofeng]

Olmec