48 replies to this topic

[wuTao]

What are some of the foreign kingdoms/states established by Han people, and what are the dates of their existence? By foreign, I mean kindgoms outside the borders of present day China, or that may be partially in the borders of the PRC but ruled as a non-Chinese state. Also, provide what your source is, so that anyone interested can know what sources to look at to investigate further. So far, the ones I know about are:

1. Gija/Jizi Joseon, est. ~300 B.C.-194 B.C. or 1126 B.C.-194 B.C. by Gija/Jizi, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gija and http://en.wikipedia....iki/Gija_Joseon (though I'm not too sure how accurate this is).

2. Nan Yue, est. 208 B.C-111 B.C. by Trieu Da/Zhao Tuo, from "The Birth of Vietnam", by Kieth Weller Taylor

3. Wiman Joseon, est. 194 B.C.-108 B.C. by Wiman/Wei Man, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei_Man (not sure of the accuracy of this either).

4. Lin-i, est. 192 A.D. by Ou Lien, from "The Birth of Vietnam", by Kieth Weller Taylor

[Gubook Janggoon]

You could probably make the argument that Dangun himself was Chinese.

[Liang Jieming]

I have a few articles on the early overseas settlements posted into the overseas chinese forum. Might want to take a look there too. Kingdoms like Demak, Semarang etc.

[wuTao]

I have a few articles on the early overseas settlements posted into the overseas chinese forum.  Might want to take a look there too.  Kingdoms like Demak, Semarang etc.

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Wow, that information on the Kingdom of Demak was very interesting! Is all you posted on the kingdom all that's known about it? No political, military, economic, etc. details are known? And what was it's relation to Ming China at the time like? Also, did the Kingdom of Demak leave records of it's own existence, or is all we know about them from Javan records, Portugese travel journals, etc.? Also, know any good books on it in English?

[Liang Jieming]

My friend from Jakarta is sending me a book on this. I hope to get it soon. It's written by a local Indonesian author but in Bahasa Indonesia so it'll take me awhile to go through the book but according to my friend, it's a very good book and he highly recommends it. I'll post here when I've read it.

[Yun]

What about the Chinese gold-mining kongsi ('gongsi', company) in west Borneo (present-day Kalimantan), which were essentially self-governing kingdoms or republics (with kings or elected presidents and also armies)? They were founded by Cantonese/Hakka immigrants in the late 18th century and destroyed by the Dutch during the colonial expansion in the 19th century. Most of the kongsi were conquered by the Dutch army in 1854; one, the Lanfong kongsi (a democratic republic), was allowed to exist until 1884.

Good info can be found here: http://www.xiguan.net/yuanbingling (an entire book on the topic by Prof. Yuan Bingling, published in 2000 and now available for reading online)

According to my other info, a Teochew (Chaozhou) man named Zhang Jiexu also founded a kingdom on the Natuna Islands, but civil war broke out after his death and the kingdom collapsed. A Hokkien (Fujian) man named Wu Yang founded a kingdom on the Malay peninsula (not specified where), which was later annexed by the British.

[Yun]

Another thing is that Taksin, the Ayyuthaya general who re-founded Siam after the fall of Ayyuthaya to the Burmese in 1767, is believed to have been of Chinese descent. He was later deposed and replaced by General Chakri, who founded the dynasty that still rules Thailand today. Funny thing is, the current Prime Minister of Thailand is Thaksin Sinawatra, a millionaire of Chinese descent!

[Karakhan]

Lee Lin,

not necessarily established an empire, but certainly took control of the ancient Kyrgyz (or Khakass, depending on whose history and claims you follow), and whose descendents appear to have contributed to the fall of the Uighur Empire in Mongolia.

Lee Lin


Li LinA dignitary with Chinese origin, ruler of the Giangun state.
In 99 B.C. Chinese commander Lee Lin, who was defeated after a long resistance, went to serve the Huns. He stayed with the Huns and got control of Hiagas, where his descendents ruled almost until the epoch of Chingiz khan. Lee Lin died in the country of the Huns in the year of 74 B.C.. His son is mentioned among dignitaries of the Huns in the following generation.

It is known that during the Tan Dynasty, the descendent of Lee Lin was a Kyrgyz khan, who put an end to the Uigur state. He died in 847. Since the Tan rulers belonged to the same clan as Lee, the Kyrgyz khan was recognized as a relative of governing Chinese dynasty during the negotiations in 841 and it was considered to include his name among the royal family.

The sources of the History Institute of the National academy of science of the Kyrgyz Republic.

http://eng.president...istorykr/lilinn

[Yun]

That would be Li Ling, descendant of Li Guang. Sima Qian lost his testicles for speaking up for Li Ling after he was condemned for surrendering to the Xiongnu.

Incidentally, the Southern Dynasties maintained that the Tuoba Xianbei (who ruled their enemy state, the Northern Wei) were actually descended from Li Ling's marriage to a Xiongnu woman. The Tuoba themselves claimed to be descended from the youngest of the 25 sons of the Yellow Emperor.

[Karakhan]

That would be Li Ling, descendant of Li Guang. Sima Qian lost his testicles for speaking up for Li Ling after he was condemned for surrendering to the Xiongnu.

Incidentally, the Southern Dynasties maintained that the Tuoba Xianbei (who ruled their enemy state, the Northern Wei) were actually descended from Li Ling's marriage to a Xiongnu woman. The Tuoba themselves claimed to be descended from the youngest of the 25 sons of the Yellow Emperor.

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pretty interesting.

I guess some can claim that the father of the Kyrgyz tribes cuold be Li Ling himself, I was surprise when I saw his name first on the Kyrgyz president's webpage.

[tianzhuwoye]

Not real sure if this fits in with the topic, but what is the story behind the kingdom known in the PRC as Gaochang, located near present day Turpan? It's taught here that it started out as a 'Han' colony, but everything else about its history, especially a lot of the timing, makes the claim seem a little weird. Just wondering where to look for other theories.

Incidentally, the Southern Dynasties maintained that the Tuoba Xianbei (who ruled their enemy state, the Northern Wei) were actually descended from Li Ling's marriage to a Xiongnu woman. The Tuoba themselves claimed to be descended from the youngest of the 25 sons of the Yellow Emperor.

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Is it wrong to say that the Tuoba and 'other Xianbei' also claimed to be restarting, or to be decedents of, earlier kingdoms like Wei, Qin and Yan? Are terms like ‘Former Yan’ and ‘Later Yan’ relatively recent inventions for helping to prevent confusion among historians? If so, how old are these terms? Also, how well is ‘Xianbei’ understood and what’s the argument or criteria for ‘Xianbei identity?’

[Yun]

Not real sure if this fits in with the topic, but what is the story behind the kingdom known in the PRC as Gaochang, located near present day Turpan? It's taught here that it started out as a 'Han' colony, but everything else about its history, especially a lot of the timing, makes the claim seem a little weird. Just wondering where to look for other theories.

Gaochang (previously the statelet of Cheshi) was first used as the Headquarters of the Western Han protectorate over the Western Regions. It served the same purpose for Eastern Han, Wei, Western Jin, Former Liang, Former Qin, Later Liang, Western Liang and Northern Liang. It continued to be occupied by survivors of the Juqu ruling house of the Northern Liang state after that state was conquered by Northern Wei in 439. These Juqu were probably either Sogdians or Xiongnu. The Juqu regime was destroyed by the Rouran in 460, thereafter, Gaochang was ruled by a succession of ethnic Han vassal kings of the Rouran - the Gan, the Zhang, the Ma and the Ju. In the 550s, the Turkut overthrew the Rouran and placed Gaochang under direct rule, ending the semi-independent Gaochang kingdom.

Is it wrong to say that the Tuoba and 'other Xianbei' also claimed to be restarting, or to be decedents of, earlier kingdoms like Wei, Qin and Yan? Are terms like ‘Former Yan’ and ‘Later Yan’ relatively recent inventions for helping to prevent confusion among historians? If so, how old are these terms? Also, how well is ‘Xianbei’ understood and what’s the argument or criteria for ‘Xianbei identity?’

Some scholars argue that 'Xianbei' was a "brand name" or "firm name" that included a wide range of peoples. Zhu Xueyuan, for one, basically traces every people in the region's history, from the Huns to the Khitan and Jurchen to the Mongols, to the original Xianbei confederation.

'Former' and 'Later', as well as direction prefixes like 'Southern' and 'Western', are all labels added by later historians (but not much later in most cases) to avoid confusion. But it's not true that the Tuoba claimed to be refounding the Cao-Wei kingdom. They simply used the name. Later Qin was founded by a rebel general of the Former Qin, and the same thing applies to Later Zhao. Continuity was probably one reason for this. Later Yan was completely a restoration of the Former Yan, which had been destroyed by Former Qin.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

These are territorial names. Zhao was found because the xiongnu thought their ancestors were the kingdom of Zhong Shan in present day Ordos, which was part of Zhao, so they called their kingdom Zhao. This they changed from Han since the new ruler thought that they should be paying homage to their xiongnu ancestor instead of the Han house of Liu which Liu Yuan did.

As for other kingdoms found by the imperial regimes. The Kingdom of Zheng in Guei Zhou is said to be found by a Chu general. The kingdom of Gao Cang is already mentioned, The karakitai is also based on the Liao regime which is mostly Chinese in manner by the late 12th century. So would Taiwan if it ever become another political entity. although its Annam has also been found at times by the imperial generals. I don't care too much for ethnic descendants since these mean little to me. But if so then Singapore should also be there.

[Yun]

Zhao was found because the xiongnu thought their ancestors were the kingdom of Zhong Shan in present day Ordos, which was part of Zhao, so they called their kingdom Zhao.

Actually, according to my sources Liu Yao changed the name of the state from Han to Zhao because he had been given the title of Prince of Zhongshan after taking Luoyang for the Han state in 311. But the part about him cutting the ties to the Han imperial house (including the Shu-Han) and reaffirming Modu Chanyu as his ancestor is true.

The unfortunate coincidence is that before Liu Yao's advisors convinced him to change the state name to Zhao, he had already enfeoffed Shi Le as Duke of Zhao and then Prince of Zhao. So when Shi Le rebelled and set up his own state, he also called it Zhao. To avoid confusion, historians call this the Later Zhao.

[wuTao]

Wow, thanks for the informative responses Yun and Karakhan. Are there historical records to back up the info on the ethnicity of Taksin and the info on the Kyrygz president's site? If not, how did people come to these conclusions?