4 replies to this topic

[allie]

I will like to know the maximum number of soliders of Wei, Wu and Shu.

1. During the battle of Chibi, Cao Cao had send an army of about 200 000 soliders, Wu send about 30 000 soliders while Liu Bei send about 20 000 soliders.

Was 200 000 soliders the maximum number of soliders that Cao Cao could send at that time? What was the total number of soliders that Cao Cao had at that time?

How abou Liu Bei and Sun Quan? Was 20 000 and 30 000 soliders the maximum number of soldiers that they could send for the battle at that time? and what was the total number of soliders that Liu Bei and Sun Quan had at that time?

2. During the battle of yiling, Liu Bei send 40 000 soliders. What was the maximum number of soliders that Shu had at that time? Sun Quan send 160 000 soliders. What was the maximum number of soliders that Wu had at that time?

And what was the maximum number of soliders that Wei had at that time?

3. At the battle of Xingshi, in a article mentioned by wikipedia, Cao Shuang lost about 125 000 troops which was about 15% of Wei total troops of about 800 000 soliders at that time.

So how much troops did Shu and Wu had at that time?

[Jimayo]

I will like to know the maximum number of soliders of Wei, Wu and Shu.

1. During the battle of Chibi, Cao Cao had send an army of about 200 000 soliders, Wu send about 30 000 soliders while Liu Bei send about 20 000 soliders.

Was 200 000 soliders the maximum number of soliders that Cao Cao could send at that time? What was the total number of soliders that Cao Cao had at that time?

How abou Liu Bei and Sun Quan? Was 20 000 and 30 000 soliders the maximum number of soldiers that they could send for the battle at that time? and what was the total number of soliders that Liu Bei and Sun Quan had at that time?

2. During the battle of yiling, Liu Bei send 40 000 soliders. What was the maximum number of soliders that Shu had at that time? Sun Quan send 160 000 soliders. What was the maximum number of soliders that Wu had at that time?

And what was the maximum number of soliders that Wei had at that time?

3. At the battle of Xingshi, in a article mentioned by wikipedia, Cao Shuang lost about 125 000 troops which was about 15% of Wei total troops of about 800 000 soliders at that time.

So how much troops did Shu and Wu had at that time?

1. The sources(and by sources, I mean SGZ bio) are all over the place on how many men Cao Cao brought with him to Chibi. I wouldn't assume 200,000 is correct.

And 20,000 was every soldier Liu Bei had at the time, but it was all or nothing for him. Sun Quan had between 30,000-40,000 held back.

2. At Yiling itself it was Liu Bei 40,000 - Lu Xun 50,000. And Shu's population before the yt rebellion was about 1.6 million so maybe a mil by this point. So probably no more than 200,000 troops at this point in time. Wu had significantly higher pop(which actually grew during the three k due to their constant aggression southwards, bringing the Shanyue and chinese exiles under their rule), so they would have had a much larger army from their 3 provinces.

3. Heh, wiki. I seriously doubt that's correct, since it was rare for an army to lose >10% and not break and run. To lose your entire army seems implausible at best.

[ronempress]

1. The sources(and by sources, I mean SGZ bio) are all over the place on how many men Cao Cao brought with him to Chibi. I wouldn't assume 200,000 is correct.

And 20,000 was every soldier Liu Bei had at the time, but it was all or nothing for him. Sun Quan had between 30,000-40,000 held back.

2. At Yiling itself it was Liu Bei 40,000 - Lu Xun 50,000. And Shu's population before the yt rebellion was about 1.6 million so maybe a mil by this point. So probably no more than 200,000 troops at this point in time. Wu had significantly higher pop(which actually grew during the three k due to their constant aggression southwards, bringing the Shanyue and chinese exiles under their rule), so they would have had a much larger army from their 3 provinces.

3. Heh, wiki. I seriously doubt that's correct, since it was rare for an army to lose >10% and not break and run. To lose your entire army seems implausible at best.

[f0ma]

It's wise to be wary of army sizes in ancient China, especially when dealing with the Three Kingdoms period. Generals often exaggerated the size of their own armies as well as the casualties inflicted on the enemy, which leads to many discrepancies. History writers of the time also tended to amplify numbers, so it's difficult to arrive at certain conclusions. Also, most numbers for army sizes are taken from the army at the outset of the campaign and don't necessarily apply to the actual number of troops who fought in any given battle. A general rule of thumb is to be wary of any army size over 100,000, especially when dealing with smaller states like Wu and Shu.

I'm afraid I couldn't give you an accurate figure for any Three Kingdoms army, but I know the Jin army at its height was somewhere in the region of 500,000-700,000 men. This was after unifying China, so I doubt any of the preceding three dynasties could have mustered much more. I would definitely be suspicious of a Wei standing army of 800,000, though I don't have any evidence for or against this claim.

[jamjoh]

It seems that for really large armies it ends up that the actual number is at most about 30% of what was initially reported. Chibi is a good example because Cao Cao claimed to have sent 800,000 men where it seems more likely that number was between 200,000-250,000. Modern estimates of the Battle of Muye put Shang troop numbers at less than 15% of what was claimed. This is not a phenomena exclusive to China either, since Ctesias' estimates for the Persian army at Thermopylae 800,000 (Herodotus' estimate was even more ridiculous) when the actual strength was at most 300,000.

The thing to remember no one actually counted them all, and looking at a army of 300,000 versus 1,000,000 when you had never seen an army of even 100,000 tends to make your estimate high.

The modern estimates are based on the resources that were available available at the time (ie. how many soldiers could a give ruler actually feed and equip), so although they are not irrefutable there is solid math behind them.