165 replies to this topic

[NWOG]

Some days ago our teacher claimed that the great wall was the only human construction that was visible from the moon. Now, I believe I have read that it is actually a myth. What is correct?

Also, what was the purpose of the great wall. I believe what most people would say would be that it was for defence purposes, but I have read only a little bit I believe I remember reading that the great wall was built for communications purposes; horse-driven wagons could travel fast across the wall? Also, the second purpose was customs/duty purposes, and any defence purposes was generally just a bonus?
How correct is this? What was the real purpose of the great wall?

And lastly, why is it that the wall is not a complete wall but a set of many walls that are not connected to each other (I believe I saw a pic which showed the "great wall" in many pieces stretched across China)?

Thanks

Edited by NWOG, 15 September 2006 - 06:19 AM.

[orchid_dreams]

The Great Wall was first constructed in the Spring - Autumn, and Warring States period, for, defence reasons. It was later reconstructed by Qin Shi Huang and then many other rulers after that to protect their country from enemies in the North.

here's a site you may find useful:
http://www.travelchi...ina_great_wall/

[Yun]

NWOG, we have a huge thread here about the 'Great Wall'. So I've moved your question here too.

Some answers:

1. Yes, the 'Great Wall can be seen from the moon' stuff is just a myth.

2. The purpose of the 'Great Wall' (or rather, its different versions in different periods - see below) was always primarily to deter steppe nomads from raiding the border. These nomads differed from period to period: Linhu, Loufan, Donghu, Shanrong, and Xiongnu in the Warring States; Xiongnu in the Qin and Han; Rouran in the Northern Wei; Turks in the Sui; and Mongols in the Jurchen-Jin and Ming.

3. There is actually no single 'Great Wall', but rather different walls constructed in different areas at different times. Various Warring States each had their own defensive walls, and the Qin dynasty joined some of them together into a single wall along the northern border. The Han dynasty extended the wall into the Gansu Corridor to keep the Xiongnu out. The Northern Wei, Sui, and Jurchen-Jin built their own stretches of wall separate from the Han wall. The Ming wall was generally further south than the Han wall (except for the Gansu Corridor part), but followed the Sui wall quite closely.

The idea of the present Great Wall being built by Qin Shihuang and rebuilt by subsequent dynasties is no more than a myth. The Qin wall has long fallen into ruins. There are also ruins of Warring States walls deep within the borders of present-day China, but they get little publicity since they cannot serve as a symbol of national unity against enemies, and instead remind us of a period of division.

[Ashura]

Actually, I think the "myth" is that the Great Wall can be seen from "space" rather than the moon-- "space" being a rather "flexible" concept. From a sufficiently "low orbit", the ruins/ foundations of the Great Wall can probably be erm, "observed" from the air much like a railway track-- especially in the desert regions of northwestern China where the terrain doesn't obscure it.

Sigh, the inland flight routes between Xi'an to Urumqi are so incredibly scenic.
The actual EFFECT of the Great Wall was an information super-highway-- a horseman travelling at top speed by regularly changing horses at the watchtowers could travel from one end (Jiayu Pass in Gobi desert) to the other (Shanhai Pass near the sea) in about 3 days (that about how's long regular train services take these days). THAT-- the possibility of a swift response (from a central authority)-- was the "deterrent".

I think it is next to impossible for horses to run on full speed on the wall due to it being built on mountains, and was not fully linked up. It was an information highway of that time with the use of signals with its towers. Also when we compare it to the Hadrian Wall in the Roman Emipre we can have a better understand in the nature of such defensive walls.

Both walls did pose a strong defense against the "barbarians"; however for them to be effective you still need to station troops near it. The walls being there were just to make to harder to launch a raid. For inforamtion, the Roman build roads along the wall (and of course towers with smoke or fire signals), which tells us that if horses were used to transfer information, it will have to be done behind the wall. Someone earlier mentioned that there is a second line of defense, and by the logic above we can assume that horses travel along the highways that linked up the second-line bases behind the wall, and the Qin dynasty did build an intensive highway network.

Edited by Ashura, 29 September 2006 - 04:05 AM.

[Ashura]

FYI, even trains don't run at top speed all the time-- for most parts of the winding tracks, the long-distance regular train service in China must stay at 40-50 km per hour. And the "express" train services don't really go any faster-- they just skip less popular stations.

The idea of top speed is-- unlike what the car salesman tells you and what the absolute figures on a speedometer show-- a relative one. Any other textual ambiguities you would like point out?

Do you ride horses? Horses do not repond well when you are go up or down stairs. The Great Wall being a wall than built on hills could not avoid to have stairs unless it is built on flat ground. The Wall of Xi An today allows horses to run on top, but not the Great Wall. There is a reason why cavalry commanders favour flat plain as battlefield. If you cannot run with horses in high speed and have to slow down to avoid a fall from time to time on the Great Wall, why bother running at all? Even a man cannot run at that condition if he was to avoid a fall. It defeats the purpose as an information highway. Why didn't they build highways on flat ground where horses can run on full speed? Actually Qin did. Also the Wall at Han time wasn't fully connected at all. If you were running along it you had to stop from time to time, look for another route, go bak to the Wall and run again. This again defeats the purpose.

I'm not saying the Great Wall was not an information highway, but the method was fire and smoke signals. Horses ran along the second line of defense.

[Prince of the South]

From the millitary point of view, the effectiveness of Great Wall in the northern front of Qin and Han, generally speaking, is to utilize its wall, trench,beacon etc. and other advantages like readiness, to gain initiative in battle.

Interesting, if this is so, would not the invaders, having invaded and occupied the walls, utilise this initiative for their attacks too? The walls, whether you are "inside" or "outside" (relative to your position) has no front or back.

I think it is next to impossible for horses to run on full speed on the wall due to it being built on mountains

It is impossible for horses to be deployed at certain sections of the Great Wall, not to mention horses running at full speed or trotter speed. Some sections of the walls are so steep that even soldiers find it difficult to climb. And I am talking about those sections of the great wall at badaling open to the public. I almost fainted trying to climb one section i believe more than 50 degrees and also if you feared heights that's double the difficulty. There is no wall a horse can climb that kind of steep steps (some steps are more than a foot high, and less than a 150 mm deep (thread).

Most of the Ming Wall is built on treacherous terrain, mountainous and some walls are virtually built on cliffs! This part of the walls, it is no use having cavalry to invade Chinese territory, because you can't ride your horses up to those terrain, but you could if you deploy infantry, but they got to be the fittest people you can find, because, after breaching the walls (if you succeeded) you got to negotiate the wrenched terrain on the other side!

The design of the walls are primarily for military defense anyway. The idea of the wall is to separate or divide, and that's the main purpose i believe, but if you see those parts of the walls perched high up the mountain ridges, you wonder if it is an important element in keeping out invaders and protecting your territory.

My take? It is very, damned important, and i say this only looking at the Ming walls. The way they are constructed, the materials, the scale and the massiveness of it all, it really reflect the kind of danger and peril China was facing "on the other side" (eg. Mongols hordes). Really, the magnificent walls is also tantamount to magnificient fear / threat / peril. It must be, surely. Look at your house, you can build a low fence to demarcate your land, or build a 1.5 metre fence to keep off dogs, or build a 2 metre fence to block your neighbours looking in, and put up metal wires at the top of the fence to deter thieves scaling over it. Each type of walls depends on what your purpose is, for the Ming Great Wall, it definitely is for protection and military defence against a very potent enemy, it surely is, because no one in the right frame of mind would construct and undertake such a labour intensive and money draining massive project just to keep off a few mad men on wild horses, yeah?

Edited by Prince of the South, 08 October 2006 - 11:53 PM.

[Prince of the South]

Can you see the Great Wall from space (relatively speaking if you like) or from the moon?

If you can, you could also see, for sure, the Golden State Bridge, Singapore's Benjamin Sheares Bridge, and even the Penang Bridge for that matter, all which are much higher and wider than the Great Wall.

Edited by Prince of the South, 08 October 2006 - 11:52 PM.

[Koolasuchus]

Can you see the Great Wall from space (relatively speaking if you like) or from the moon?

If you can, you could also see, for sure, the Golden State Bridge, Singapore's Benjamin Sheares Bridge, and even the Penang Bridge for that matter, all which are much higher and wider than the Great Wall.

But none of those are on mountain tops or course through deserts. Can you spot a house fly on a chocolate cake on the table? The same house fly will be plain visible if it lands on a white wall same distance from your eyes.

Edited by Koolasuchus, 09 October 2006 - 01:07 AM.

[Prince of the South]

But none of those are on mountain tops or course through deserts. Can you spot a house fly on a chocolate cake on the table? The same house fly will be plain visible if it lands on a white wall same distance from your eyes

If spotting the great wall on a plain green mountaninous background or yellowish desert is likened to spotting a fly on a white wall some distance away, then surely you can spot the penang bridge on a sea blue background which is likened to spotting a cockroach on a white wall the SAME distance away!

By any means, the great wall cutting through the desert is well camoflaged with basically the same colour and the great walls perching over mountainous tops would blend in with nature contours, wouldn't this likened to spotting a house fly on a chocolate cake?

In any case, you can't see it from space, house fly, chocolate cake, penang bridge or great wall, period.

Edited by Prince of the South, 09 October 2006 - 01:35 AM.

[Ashura]

But none of those are on mountain tops or course through deserts. Can you spot a house fly on a chocolate cake on the table? The same house fly will be plain visible if it lands on a white wall same distance from your eyes

If spotting the great wall on a plain green mountaninous background or yellowish desert is likened to spotting a fly on a white wall some distance away, then surely you can spot the penang bridge on a sea blue background which is likened to spotting a cockroach on a white wall the SAME distance away!

By any means, the great wall cutting through the desert is well camoflaged with basically the same colour and the great walls perching over mountainous tops would blend in with nature contours, wouldn't this likened to spotting a house fly on a chocolate cake?

In any case, you can't see it from space, house fly, chocolate cake, penang bridge or great wall, period.

I agree that seeing the Great Wall in space is just a myth. Anyone knows where did the myth come from anyway?

[Koolasuchus]

But none of those are on mountain tops or course through deserts. Can you spot a house fly on a chocolate cake on the table? The same house fly will be plain visible if it lands on a white wall same distance from your eyes

If spotting the great wall on a plain green mountaninous background or yellowish desert is likened to spotting a fly on a white wall some distance away, then surely you can spot the penang bridge on a sea blue background which is likened to spotting a cockroach on a white wall the SAME distance away!

By any means, the great wall cutting through the desert is well camoflaged with basically the same colour and the great walls perching over mountainous tops would blend in with nature contours, wouldn't this likened to spotting a house fly on a chocolate cake?

In any case, you can't see it from space, house fly, chocolate cake, penang bridge or great wall, period.

And being in the mountains and deserts meant it is not covered by a giant cloud of SMOG. Try to see through that in Malaysia.

[Prince of the South]

You can see the Great Wall from the sky.... from the airplane, but not from space.

Don't believe me, try google earth....

[fcharton]

I think it came from the first astronauts who mistook the "lines" running through the Gobi Deserts as the Great Wall. Those "lines" are real-- but the first Chinese astronaut, with a better understanding of Chinese history/ geography, didn't go around crying "Great Wall! Great Wall!". They might be the railway or highway but they seem to be in the "wrong" place.

Actually, the claim is much older than space conquest, it was claimed in an American book, Second Book of Marvels, The Orient, in 1938..
I think the origin of the claim lies in calculations about visibility of objects. Depending on its size, an object can be seen from a certain distance. I suppose someone then went on to calculate what was the minimal size of a "line shaped" object to be visible from the moon, and noticed that the great wall was the only human construction which could possibly be visible as such large distance. So the original claim could have been, to be visible from the moon, an object would need to be comparable in size to the Great Wall, which then became, the Great Wall is the only human constrction, etc...

Francois

Edited by fcharton, 11 October 2006 - 03:31 AM.

[Wolfy Blue]

Why is the Great Wall considered an emblem of China's evolution? :\ (Yes, it is me again, I'm sure ya'll (Yes I say ya'll ^^) are all thinking "GOD! THIS GIRL IS A RETARD! STOP POSTING ALREADY! O_O; Heh xD) Wait... I dunno if this is about China's history... Well, it kinda is O_O But then again... Meh... It's a stretch O_O xD

Edited by Wolfy Blue, 28 November 2006 - 10:48 AM.

[Yun]

Actually, the Great Wall was not a symbol for China until the early 20th century. The Qing dynasty paid little attention to it because they didn't need it (they controlled Mongolia, after all), and no Chinese people saw it as a great engineering marvel. The Wall first became famous in Europe because of the descriptions brought back by the Jesuits, and it became a kind of symbol to Europeans of China's supposed unwillingness to interact with the outside world. Then, in the 1930s, the Great Wall became a heroic symbol for the Chinese of their resistance to the Japanese invasion - it even found its way into the "March of the Volunteers" (later adopted as the PRC's national anthem). That is basically how the Great Wall acquired the prestige that it enjoys today.