165 replies to this topic

[ih8eurocentrix]

spanish and Vasco da gama was later than the ming voyages?

[Yang Zongbao]

Yes, the Manchu.
They took the long way around the wall, I recall reading from the Shanhaiguan article on China Defense.

[Craig]

yes around 100 years later did the spanish arrived
Liu Ta-Hsia was a typical neo-Confucius. He basically destroy any chance that China can take back control of the sea again.

The trade with the Spanish did nothing with the sad state of the economy, because the peasants still revolted due to the taxes on the great wall.

If only the neo-Confucius official had not ban sea trade after Zheng He, than there is a chance the Ming dynasty will last longer.

Frankly the neo-Confucius official decision to ban maritime travel is the reason why the Ming dynasty decline and finally fell.

Yes, to a certain extent, you're right. But at the time these decisions were being made, weren't the Mongols the greater threat? After all, they captured an Emperor in 1448,, and the Ming had just forced what was left of Khublais armies back across the Ordos.

[jiangji]

The maritime travel is basically to generate funds for the Chinese military and help strength the Ming economy. Otherwise, why do you think Yongle who was himself a military commander, order the voyages.

Of course the neo-Confucius official were never that far sighted, just as they were never far sighted during the late Qing dynasty.

Neo-Confucius official was right to stop the voyages because it is bankrupting the Empire. Eventhough Yongle authorizes the voyages, he fails to encourage trade which could have help the economy and generate fund for the Zheng He expedition. This gives the confucious official a huge opportunity to argue that the voyages is totally useless and meaningless. Yongle could have prove that trade help the economy but he never did so and only use the voyages as show of Ming great power.

It was the costs of building the great wall that bring the nation to financial difficulties. After Yongle, the Ming end up just like song dynasty moving towards defensive position. The Ming put all their attention on building great wall caring less for people well-being.

Edited by jiangji, 27 December 2005 - 03:44 AM.

[Yun]

Let me put it this way. The Zheng He voyages became redundant and unnecessary by the mid-15th century because the 'tribute system' was in place by then, and Malacca (with much Ming political support) had become the middleman port where Middle Eastern and Indian merchants brought spices in their ships, spices which were then sent to the Ming court as tribute. With Malacca there as a supplier, what was the need of sending large expensive fleets to the Western Ocean to get them? The situation only changed in the 16th century because Portugal conquered Malacca and seized control of the spice trade, and because the growing illegal silver trade with Japan could not be controlled within the tribute system.

Of course, burning the logs for Zheng He's voyages and the plan for the Treasure Ships was rather excessive, but perhaps that was an act of spite by the officials against the eunuchs. I wouldn't blame just the Neo-Confucian officials - the eunuchs after Yongle got worse and worse, and would hardly have made good commanders of Treasure Ships.

Anyway, can we get back to the topic of the wall and debate the Zheng He voyages on another thread?

Edited by Yun, 27 December 2005 - 10:22 AM.

[Craig]

Let me put it this way. The Zheng He voyages became redundant and unnecessary by the mid-15th century because the 'tribute system' was in place by then, and Malacca (with much Ming political support) had become the middleman port where Middle Eastern and Indian merchants brought spices in their ships, spices which were then sent to the Ming court as tribute. With Malacca there as a supplier, what was the need of sending large expensive fleets to the Western Ocean to get them? The situation only changed in the 16th century because Portugal conquered Malacca and seized control of the spice trade, and because the growing illegal silver trade with Japan could not be controlled within the tribute system.

Of course, burning the logs for Zheng He's voyages and the plan for the Treasure Ships was rather excessive, but perhaps that was an act of spite by the officials against the eunuchs. I wouldn't blame just the Neo-Confucian officials - the eunuchs after Yongle got worse and worse, and would hardly have made good commanders of Treasure Ships.

Anyway, can we get back to the topic of the wall and debate the Zheng He voyages on another thread?

Sure, but this was my point by bringing up Liu Ta Hsia. Here is a Confucian official who was intimately involved in the burning of logs, anti maritime edicts, building the wall and the opening of the Grand Canal. Any one of the afore mentioned events didn't take place in a vacuum, but were elements of an overall geo-political strategy constructed and carried out by Liu Ta Hsia. I just don't buy it that these acts were born of spite or emotion. They weren't disassociated events, but rather parts of a rational policy.

[Howard Fu]

I think Cao Cuo had stated the effectiveness of Great Wall very well.

资治通鉴
卷第十五 【汉纪七】起玄黓涒滩，尽柔兆阉茂，凡十五年。
...
时匈奴数为边患，太子家令颍川晁错上言兵事曰：“《兵法》曰：‘有必胜之
将，无必胜之民。’由此观之，安边境，立功名，在于良将，不可不择也。
臣又闻，用兵临战合刃之急者三：一曰得地形，二曰卒服习，三曰器用利。兵
法：步兵、车骑、弓弩、长戟、矛鋋、剑楯之地，各有所宜；不得其宜者，或十不
当一。士不选练，卒不服习，起居不精，动静不集，趋利弗及，
避难不毕，前击后解，与金鼓之指相失，此不习勒卒之过也，百不当十。兵不完利，
与空手同；甲不坚密，与袒裼同；弩不可以及远，与短兵同；射不能中，与无矢同；
中不能入，与无镞同；此将不省兵之祸也，五不当一。故
《兵法》曰：‘器械不利，以其卒予敌也；卒不可用，以其将予敌也；将不知兵，
以其主予敌也；君不择将，以其国予敌也。’四者，兵之至要也。
臣又闻：小大异形，强弱异势，险易异备。夫卑身以事强，小国之形也；合小
以攻大，敌国之形也；以蛮夷攻蛮夷，中国之形也。今匈奴地形、技艺与中国异，
上下山阪，出入溪涧，中国之马弗与也；险道倾仄，且驰且射，
中国之骑弗与也；风雨罢劳，饥渴不困，中国之人弗与也；此匈奴之长技也。若夫
平原、易地、轻车、突骑，则匈奴之众易挠乱也；劲弩、长戟、射疏、及远，则匈
奴之弓弗能格也；坚甲、利刃，长短相杂，游弩往来，什伍俱前，
则匈奴之兵弗能当也；材官驺发，矢道同的，则匈奴之革笥、木荐弗能支也；下马
地斗，剑戟相接，去就相薄，则匈奴之足弗能给也；此中国之长技也。以此观之，
匈奴之长技三，中国之长技五。陛下又兴数十万之众以诛数万之
匈奴，众寡之计，以一击十之术也。
虽然，兵，凶器；战，危事也。故以大为小，以强为弱，在俛仰之间耳。夫以
人之死争胜，跌而不振，则悔之无及也。帝王之道，出于万全。今降胡、义渠、蛮
夷之属来归谊者，其众数千，饮食、长技与匈奴同。可赐之坚甲、
絮衣、劲弓、利矢，益以边郡之良骑，令明将能知其习俗、和辑其心者，以陛下之
明约将之。即有险阻，以此当之；平地通道，则以轻车、材官制之；两军相为表里，
各用其长技，衡加之以众，此万全之术也。”
帝嘉之，赐错书，宠答焉。错又上言曰：“臣闻秦起兵而攻胡、粤者，非以卫
边地而救民死也，贪戾而欲广大也，故功未立而天下乱。且夫起兵而不知其势，战
则为人禽，屯则卒积死。夫胡、貉之人，其性耐寒；扬、粤之人，
其性耐暑。秦之戍卒不耐其水土，戍者死于边，输者偾于道。秦民见行，如往弃市，
因以谪发之，名曰‘谪戍’；先发吏有谪及赘婿、贾人，后以尝有市籍者，又后以
大父母、父母尝有市籍者，后入闾取其左。发之不顺，行者愤
怨，有万死之害而亡铢两之报，死事之后，不得一算之复，天下明知祸烈及己也。
陈胜行戍，至于大泽，为天下先倡，天下从之如流水者，秦以威劫而行之之敝也。
胡人衣食之业，不著于地，其势易以扰乱边境，往来转徙，时至时去。此胡人
之生业，而中国之所以离南畮也。今胡人数转牧、行猎于塞下，以候备塞之卒，卒
少则入。陛下不救，则边民绝望而有降敌之心；救之，少发则不
足，多发，远县才至，则胡又已去。聚而不罢，为费甚大；罢之，则胡复入。如此
连年，则中国贫苦而民不安矣。陛下幸忧边境，遣将吏发卒以治塞，甚大惠也。然
今远方之卒守塞，一岁而更，不知胡人之能。不如选常居者家室
田作，且以备之，以便为之高城深堑；要害之处，通川之道，调立城邑，毋下千家。
先为室屋，具田器，乃募民，免罪，拜爵，复其家，予冬夏衣、禀食，能自给而止。
塞下之民，禄利不厚，不可使久居危难之地。胡人入驱而能
止其所驱者，以其半予之，县官为赎。其民如是，则邑里相救助，赴胡不避死。非
以德上也，欲全亲戚而利其财也；此与东方之戍卒不习地势而心畏胡者功相万也。
以陛下之时，徙民实边，使远方无屯戍之事；塞下之民，父子相
保，无系虏之患；利施后世，名称圣明，其与秦之行怨民，相去远矣。”
上从其言，募民徙塞下。


错复言：“陛下幸募民徙以实塞下，使屯戍之事益省，输将之费益寡，甚大惠
也。下吏诚能称厚惠，奉明法，存恤所徙之老弱，善遇其壮士，和辑其心而勿侵刻，
使先至者安乐而不思故乡，则贫民相慕而劝往矣。臣闻古之徙
民者，相其阴阳之和，尝其水泉之味，然后营邑、立城、制里、割宅，先为筑室家，
置器物焉。民至有所居，作有所用。此民所以轻去故乡而劝之新邑也。为置医、巫
以救疾病，以修祭祀，男女有昏，生死相恤，坟墓相从，种树
畜长，室屋完安。此所以使民乐其处而有长居之心也。
臣又闻古之制边县以备敌也，使五家为伍，伍有长；十长一里，里有假士；四
里一连，连有假五百；十连一邑，邑有假候。皆择其邑之贤材有护、习地形、知民
心者。居则习民于射法，出则教民于应敌。故卒伍成于内，则军
政定于外。服习以成，勿令迁徙，幼则同游，长则共事。夜战声相知，则足以相救；
昼战目相见，则足以相识；欢爱之心，足以相死。如此而劝以厚赏，威以重罚，则
前死不还踵矣。所徙之民非壮有材者，但费衣粮，不可用也；
虽有材力，不得良吏，犹亡功也。
陛下绝匈奴不与和亲，臣窃意其冬来南也；壹大治，则终身创矣。欲立威者，
始于折胶；来而不能困，使得气去，后未易服也。”
...

Edited by Howard Fu, 05 April 2006 - 08:43 AM.

[Howard Fu]

A quote from Chinese Millitary History.

仅就军事角度而言，长城在秦、汉北部边防中的作用，概括起来，就是可以利用它的城墙、沟壕、亭障烽堡等工程设施，以及由此而产生的预有准备、以逸待劳等有利因素，在被动的形势下，获得作战的主动权，以达到消灭敌人、保存自己的战争目的。

From the millitary point of view, the effectiveness of Great Wall in the northern front of Qin and Han, generally speaking, is to utilize its wall, trench,beacon etc. and other advantages like readiness, to gain initiative in battle.

具体来说，其作用仑要有三条。
其一，它可以起到阻止、抗击较少敌人内侵的作用。假如没有或不防守这条长城，则不论多少匈奴骑兵，甚至几百人、几千人，都可以在任何方向上，毫无阻挡地渗入边睡之内，对城市及居民地实施突然袭击，劫掠人畜财物。而当边防驻屯军队得知情况，前来救援时，匈奴骑兵却早已满载而归。如西汉初期，国力尚微，匈奴“悉复收秦所使蒙恬所夺匈奴地者与汉关故河南塞”“．占领了秦始皇长城的大部地段。而汉军主力分守飞狐口(河北蔚县南)、旬注山(山西代县西山)、北地郡(甘肃庆阳西北)一线、战略预备队又集结于国都长安以北、以东的细柳、霸上，据守渭水、霸水，”以致匈奴趁虚而入，“往往入盗汉边，不可胜数”，处于“小入则小利，大入则大利。“陇西三困于匈奴”的主动局面，使汉王朝完全陷于被动地位。但从有了长城防御工程，并以一定兵力防守之后，则少量匈奴骑兵，既无力迅速攻下长城沿线那些能相互驰接的各文撑点或要点，又无法潜越这条深沟高墙、严密设防的长城防御工穗只得碰壁回军。如不迅速退走，不仅将田野无所掠，军食发生困难，而且还有遭到守军在长城掩护下荫蔽集中优势兵力实施攻击、而被歼灭于长城脚下的可能。

In details, the Great Wall had three effect.
First, it can stop enemy of relatively small number. Without the Great Wall, even several hundred or thousand Xiongnu cavalry can infiltrate the border of Han at any direction any time to raid and pillage. When the army stationed at the border get the informaiton and come to rescue, Xiongnu cavalries had returned with loads of booty. For instance, at the early time of western Han, the country is weak, Xiongnu took back lands that Qin general Mengtian had taken and most part of the Great Wall built by the First Emperor. The main force of Han army is defending the line of Feihukow,Xunzhu mountain and Beidijun. The reserve is concentrated in Xiliu and Bashang which is at the north and west of capital Changan, defending the Wei and Ba river. Xiongnu take the chance of defense vacancy to enter and pillage. 'If they entered in small number, they get small number of booty. If they enter with large number, they get large number of booty.' 'Longxi was surrounded by Xiongnu three times'. The Han dynasty was in totally passive situation. Since the Great Wall was built and stationed with army. Small number of Xiongnu cavalries can neither take down the mutual supporting forts along the Great Wall line, nor surpass this defens work. If they don't retreat rapidly, they will face the danger of starvation, because pillage is not easy any more, or being anialated at the foot of the Great Wall.

其二，当匈奴骑兵大兵团来攻时，它可以起到消耗、迟滞敌人，争取时间，保障纵深主力集中、展开的作用，从而粉碎敌速战速决的企图。假如没有长城，匈奴骑兵大兵团可以在很短的时间内，长驱直进，深入腹地。不仅直接威胁国家的安全，而且将使很大地域内的人民遭受严重的灾难和破坏。又由于骑兵机动性，匈奴军往往进行大踏步的流动劫掠、袭扰，汉王朝难以集中兵力捕捉、歼灭匈奴军。如汉文帝十四年(公元前166年)时，“匈奴单于十四万骑入朝那、萧关(均在宁夏固原东南)，杀北地都尉印，掠人民畜产甚多，遂至彭阳(甘肃镇原东)。使骑兵入烧回中宫(甘肃团U境内)，候骑至雍甘负(陕西淖化北)’!进迫长安大门。“单于留塞内月余”，侯汉军完成集中、部署时，匈奴已凯旋回师，汉军“不能有所杀”。有了长城及防守部队，汉军进可攻，退可守，基本居于主动地位。当匈奴先遣部队接近长城防线时，通过烽隧报警，各级边防指挥部及中央统帅部即可掌握初步敌情开始进行准备；当面的戍守部队．也可当即进入紧急战备状态当匈奴主力攻打长城各据点时，有关指挥部可以立即使用机动部队支援位于敌人主要进攻地段上的要点，同时可以通知辖区各邯县列城，进行坚壁清野，加强城池戒备。中央统帅部也可以较为从容地部署二线堵击部队和向敌主攻方向机动、集中主力，形成优势，与之决战。或将其击退，或将其歼灭于长城内外附近地区，

Second, when large corps of Xiongnu cavalry come and attack, it can reduce and slow down the enemy and win time for the main force to be concentrated and deployed. Without the Great Wall the Xiongnu's large cavalry corps can strike the heart land of the empire with lightening speed. Not only the country's security is threatened, people in large area was devastatd. Because of the cavalry's mobility, Xiongnu's army often do pillage and harassing attack at large steps. It's hard for the Han dynasty to concentrate the army to capture Xiongnu army. For instance, 'in 166, 140,000 Xiongnu cavalries led by Chan Yu entered Chaona, Xiaoguan, killed the Beidi governor Yin, pillage many population and animals, then to Pengyang. Burn the Huizhong palace. Threaten the gate of Changan. Chan Yu stayed inside the Great Wall over a month'. When the Han army was concentrated and deployed, Xiongnu had returned without a single casualty. With the Great Wall and the stationed army, Han army can attack or defend, basically in an initiative situation. When the vanguard of Xiongnu approach the Great Wall line, the beach can give out initial enemy information. The commanders at all levels can begin to prepare; The army confronting the enemy can enter emergent state. When Xiongnu attack forts along the Great Wall, the commander can use reserve to support it and order nearby counties to strengthen the defense and clear the fields. The commander then have more time to organize armies in the second line to move toward the enemy's major attacking point.

其三，当汉军企图实施出击时，它可以起到进攻出发阵地及后方基地的作用。假如没有长城及其戍守部队，则匈奴间谍及侦察人员，可任意潜入内地搜集情报。汉王朝集中兵力和向边睡地区机动时，匈奴贵族统治者，可以迅速及时地得到情报，改变战略或转移。在战与不成或如何作战等方面，匈奴军完全处了主动地位，而汉军则因难于隐蔽行动企图而相对处于被动。有了长城及其戍守部队，匈奴间谍及侦察人员，通过关卡或浴越长城，都比较困难。汉军不仅可利用长城反侦察，而且可利用长城凭高瞭望，进行侦察。军队发起进攻时，长城因靠近敌人并便于隐蔽而成为良好的进攻出发阵地。汉军可以在长城及其戌守部队的荫蔽、掩护下，利用“驰道”、“直通”，秘密迅跳集中于主攻方向长城内侧，然后向匈奴发动突然进攻。在军队进入匈奴统治区后，长城各障执利于屯兵储物，是对进攻部队实施可靠全面后勤保障的重要基地。

Third, when the Han army was planning to attack, the Great Wall can be used as the start point of the offense and supporting base. Without the Great Wall,Xiongnu's spy can easily infiltrate in to collect information. When Han dynasty's army move towards the border region, Xiongnu can get the information easily and choose to fight or retreat. Xiongnu is in a absolute initiative position while the Han army is in passiveness because its move is always exposed to Xiongnu. With the Great Wall, it's harder for Xiongnu spies to enter. Han army can not only use the Great Wall to anti-spy, but also use it to recon. When the Han army initiate an attack, the Great Wall can be a very good start point. The army can gather in the inner side of the Great Wall under the cover of Great Wall and its station army. When the army enter Xiongnu's region, Great Wall can stock soldiers and materials. It's a logistic and support base.

总之，秦、汉时代连锦的长城．是掩护边境地区的筑城体系，在当时的北部边防中，确曾起过一定的积极作用。正如西汉后朗郎中候应向汉元帝所陈述的那样：“周秦以来，匈奴暴桀，起侵边埃．汉兴，尤被其害。……至孝武世，出师征伐，斥夺此地(指明山地区)，接之于幕北，建塞，起亭倦，筑外城，设屯戊以守之，然后边境得用少安。”

此外，汉的河西长城，还具有限隔匈奴与西域各少数民族的联系，防御匈奴入侵，保护被称为“丝绸之路”的中西交通大道的作用。
After all, the Great Wall of Qin and Han is a fortification system protecting the border region, and have positive effectiveness in the northern defense. As what late Western Han Langzhong Houying stated to Han Yuan Di, 'Xiongnu has been harassing the border since the time of Zhou and Qin. Han is devastated the most. Until Xiaowu's time, take this land by force, build the Great Wall and stationed it with army. The border is calmed a little.'

Otherwise, Han's Great Wall in Hexi region also has the effect of cutting off Xiongnu with other Western region nations and protect the silk road.

Edited by Howard Fu, 06 April 2006 - 11:13 AM.

[Howard Fu]

A quote from Chinese Millitary History.

仅就军事角度而言，长城在秦、汉北部边防中的作用，概括起来，就是可以利用它的城墙、沟壕、亭障烽堡等工程设施，以及由此而产生的预有准备、以逸待劳等有利因素，在被动的形势下，获得作战的主动权，以达到消灭敌人、保存自己的战争目的。

From the millitary point of view, the effectiveness of Great Wall in the northern front of Qin and Han, generally speaking, is to utilize its wall, trench,beacon etc. and other advantages like readiness, to gain initiative in battle.

具体来说，其作用仑要有三条。
其一，它可以起到阻止、抗击较少敌人内侵的作用。假如没有或不防守这条长城，则不论多少匈奴骑兵，甚至几百人、几千人，都可以在任何方向上，毫无阻挡地渗入边睡之内，对城市及居民地实施突然袭击，劫掠人畜财物。而当边防驻屯军队得知情况，前来救援时，匈奴骑兵却早已满载而归。如西汉初期，国力尚微，匈奴“悉复收秦所使蒙恬所夺匈奴地者与汉关故河南塞”“．占领了秦始皇长城的大部地段。而汉军主力分守飞狐口(河北蔚县南)、旬注山(山西代县西山)、北地郡(甘肃庆阳西北)一线、战略预备队又集结于国都长安以北、以东的细柳、霸上，据守渭水、霸水，”以致匈奴趁虚而入，“往往入盗汉边，不可胜数”，处于“小入则小利，大入则大利。“陇西三困于匈奴”的主动局面，使汉王朝完全陷于被动地位。但从有了长城防御工程，并以一定兵力防守之后，则少量匈奴骑兵，既无力迅速攻下长城沿线那些能相互驰接的各文撑点或要点，又无法潜越这条深沟高墙、严密设防的长城防御工穗只得碰壁回军。如不迅速退走，不仅将田野无所掠，军食发生困难，而且还有遭到守军在长城掩护下荫蔽集中优势兵力实施攻击、而被歼灭于长城脚下的可能。

In details, the Great Wall had three effect.
First, it can stop enemy of relatively small number. Without the Great Wall, even several hundred or thousand Xiongnu cavalry can infiltrate the border of Han at any direction any time to raid and pillage. When the army stationed at the border get the informaiton and come to rescue, Xiongnu cavalries had returned with loads of booty. For instance, at the early time of western Han, the country is weak, Xiongnu took back lands that Qin general Mengtian had taken and most part of the Great Wall built by the First Emperor. The main force of Han army is defending the line of Feihukow,Xunzhu mountain and Beidijun. The reserve is concentrated in Xiliu and Bashang which is at the north and west of capital Changan, defending the Wei and Ba river. Xiongnu take the chance of defense vacancy to enter and pillage. 'If they entered in small number, they get small number of booty. If they enter with large number, they get large number of booty.' 'Longxi was surrounded by Xiongnu three times'. The Han dynasty was in totally passive situation. Since the Great Wall was built and stationed with army. Small number of Xiongnu cavalries can neither take down the mutual supporting forts along the Great Wall line, nor surpass this defens work. If they don't retreat rapidly, they will face the danger of starvation, because pillage is not easy any more, or being anialated at the foot of the Great Wall.

其二，当匈奴骑兵大兵团来攻时，它可以起到消耗、迟滞敌人，争取时间，保障纵深主力集中、展开的作用，从而粉碎敌速战速决的企图。假如没有长城，匈奴骑兵大兵团可以在很短的时间内，长驱直进，深入腹地。不仅直接威胁国家的安全，而且将使很大地域内的人民遭受严重的灾难和破坏。又由于骑兵机动性，匈奴军往往进行大踏步的流动劫掠、袭扰，汉王朝难以集中兵力捕捉、歼灭匈奴军。如汉文帝十四年(公元前166年)时，“匈奴单于十四万骑入朝那、萧关(均在宁夏固原东南)，杀北地都尉印，掠人民畜产甚多，遂至彭阳(甘肃镇原东)。使骑兵入烧回中宫(甘肃团U境内)，候骑至雍甘负(陕西淖化北)’!进迫长安大门。“单于留塞内月余”，侯汉军完成集中、部署时，匈奴已凯旋回师，汉军“不能有所杀”。有了长城及防守部队，汉军进可攻，退可守，基本居于主动地位。当匈奴先遣部队接近长城防线时，通过烽隧报警，各级边防指挥部及中央统帅部即可掌握初步敌情开始进行准备；当面的戍守部队．也可当即进入紧急战备状态当匈奴主力攻打长城各据点时，有关指挥部可以立即使用机动部队支援位于敌人主要进攻地段上的要点，同时可以通知辖区各邯县列城，进行坚壁清野，加强城池戒备。中央统帅部也可以较为从容地部署二线堵击部队和向敌主攻方向机动、集中主力，形成优势，与之决战。或将其击退，或将其歼灭于长城内外附近地区，

Second, when large corps of Xiongnu cavalry come and attack, it can reduce and slow down the enemy and win time for the main force to be concentrated and deployed. Without the Great Wall the Xiongnu's large cavalry corps can strike the heart land of the empire with lightening speed. Not only the country's security is threatened, people in large area was devastatd. Because of the cavalry's mobility, Xiongnu's army often do pillage and harassing attack at large steps. It's hard for the Han dynasty to concentrate the army to capture Xiongnu army. For instance, 'in 166, 140,000 Xiongnu cavalries led by Chan Yu entered Chaona, Xiaoguan, killed the Beidi governor Yin, pillage many population and animals, then to Pengyang. Burn the Huizhong palace. Threaten the gate of Changan. Chan Yu stayed inside the Great Wall over a month'. When the Han army was concentrated and deployed, Xiongnu had returned without a single casualty. With the Great Wall and the stationed army, Han army can attack or defend, basically in an initiative situation. When the vanguard of Xiongnu approach the Great Wall line, the beach can give out initial enemy information. The commanders at all levels can begin to prepare; The army confronting the enemy can enter emergent state. When Xiongnu attack forts along the Great Wall, the commander can use reserve to support it and order nearby counties to strengthen the defense and clear the fields. The commander then have more time to organize armies in the second line to move toward the enemy's major attacking point.

其三，当汉军企图实施出击时，它可以起到进攻出发阵地及后方基地的作用。假如没有长城及其戍守部队，则匈奴间谍及侦察人员，可任意潜入内地搜集情报。汉王朝集中兵力和向边睡地区机动时，匈奴贵族统治者，可以迅速及时地得到情报，改变战略或转移。在战与不成或如何作战等方面，匈奴军完全处了主动地位，而汉军则因难于隐蔽行动企图而相对处于被动。有了长城及其戍守部队，匈奴间谍及侦察人员，通过关卡或浴越长城，都比较困难。汉军不仅可利用长城反侦察，而且可利用长城凭高瞭望，进行侦察。军队发起进攻时，长城因靠近敌人并便于隐蔽而成为良好的进攻出发阵地。汉军可以在长城及其戌守部队的荫蔽、掩护下，利用“驰道”、“直通”，秘密迅跳集中于主攻方向长城内侧，然后向匈奴发动突然进攻。在军队进入匈奴统治区后，长城各障执利于屯兵储物，是对进攻部队实施可靠全面后勤保障的重要基地。

Third, when the Han army was planning to attack, the Great Wall can be used as the start point of the offense and supporting base. Without the Great Wall,Xiongnu's spy can easily infiltrate in to collect information. When Han dynasty's army move towards the border region, Xiongnu can get the information easily and choose to fight or retreat. Xiongnu is in a absolute initiative position while the Han army is in passiveness because its move is always exposed to Xiongnu. With the Great Wall, it's harder for Xiongnu spies to enter. Han army can not only use the Great Wall to anti-spy, but also use it to recon. When the Han army initiate an attack, the Great Wall can be a very good start point. The army can gather in the inner side of the Great Wall under the cover of Great Wall and its station army. When the army enter Xiongnu's region, Great Wall can stock soldiers and materials. It's a logistic and support base.

总之，秦、汉时代连锦的长城．是掩护边境地区的筑城体系，在当时的北部边防中，确曾起过一定的积极作用。正如西汉后朗郎中候应向汉元帝所陈述的那样：“周秦以来，匈奴暴桀，起侵边埃．汉兴，尤被其害。……至孝武世，出师征伐，斥夺此地(指明山地区)，接之于幕北，建塞，起亭倦，筑外城，设屯戊以守之，然后边境得用少安。”

此外，汉的河西长城，还具有限隔匈奴与西域各少数民族的联系，防御匈奴入侵，保护被称为“丝绸之路”的中西交通大道的作用。
After all, the Great Wall of Qin and Han is a fortification system protecting the border region, and have positive effectiveness in the northern defense. As what late Western Han Langzhong Houying stated to Han Yuan Di, 'Xiongnu has been harassing the border since the time of Zhou and Qin. Han is devastated the most. Until Xiaowu's time, take this land by force, build the Great Wall and stationed it with army. The border is calmed a little.'

Otherwise, Han's Great Wall in Hexi region also has the effect of cutting off Xiongnu with other Western region nations and protect the silk road.

Edited by Howard Fu, 06 April 2006 - 11:16 AM.

[urofpersia]

Hi Howard,

can you help to translate that as many forummers can't read Chinese. Thanks!