165 replies to this topic

[Kulong]

I heard somewhere that China last for a very long time due to a large extent, to the Great Wall

How large is this extent?

Although the Great Wall probably gave Han Chinese a great advantage over the invading Huns or Mongols from the North, I wouldn't really say it allowed the Chinese civilization to "last for a very long time".

Not every civilization cease to exist due to foreign invasions. The Roman Empire for example, fell apart due to internal problems.

Also, the Mongols did manage to cross the Great Wall and conquer China during the Yuan dynasty.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Although the Great Wall probably gave Han Chinese a great advantage over the invading Huns or Mongols from the North, I wouldn't really say it allowed the Chinese civilization to "last for a very long time".

The great wall is a symbol that divides the civilized chinese from the barbarians of the north. As to whether the question of "lasting for a very long time", the great wall did help to slow down, if not deter, the invasion of northern nomadics such as XiongNu, and Xianbei, however, it doesn't prevent them from cross it, as the history of Age of Fragmentation shows.

The Great Wall's main functions are as follow:

1. Provide a quick warning communication (through a system of beacon towers), in case large scale mobilization of invading troops appear at the fronteer. Once the invasion was detected, the news will spread quickly to the capital and the emperor can ordered for the defence.

2. Provide deterence and showing down invasion - if the nomads has to invade, they will first have to cross the great wall (which was quite difficult).

3. A symbol of division of the border of China. It separated the civilized within from the uncivilized outside.

Most of the present walls were constructed during Ming dynasty. In the past, the walls were not that long. As to whether it contributed to the chinese civilization's longetivity, I would say not to a great extent. Sinification and Rich culture are the main reasons why chinese civilization last for a long time. Of course, the chinese has a large and strong army in the past, which makes it difficult to conquer China.

[Yun]

however, it doesn't prevent them from cross it, as the history of Age of Fragmentation shows.

The Age of Fragmentation is a good example of a time when the Great Wall did not serve its purpose at all. During the Eastern Han and Three Kingdoms, large populations of Xiongnu, Qiang and Di were moved within the Great Wall by the Chinese government itself, to allow more direct control over them. They were mostly settled in the Shaanxi and Shanxi areas, and so when they rebelled in the late 3rd century and early 4th century, they didn't have to cross the Great Wall at all. Hence the swiftness with which they conquered north China.

During the 4th century, the Great Wall fell into disuse and disrepair, so that when first the Murong Xianbei and then the Tuoba Xianbei invaded the Central Plains region, they did not have to bother with the Wall at all. It was after the Tuoba Xianbei established the Northern Wei and began to get sinicised that they actually rebuilt the Great Wall to defend against the Rouran - "barbarians" building walls to keep out other "barbarians"!

[Yun]

I seem to recall that in Thomas Barfield's book "The Perilous Frontier", he wrote that there are two schools of thought as to why the steppe nomads raided the settled agricultural lands. One is that they were forced to do so when the Chinese government refused to trade with them, thus depriving them of resources they needed. The other is that they reasoned that raiding was always more profitable than trading, as long as they had the resources to fight effectively. So as long as they could get what they wanted from raiding, they were encouraged to raid some more.

I think it's quite possible that both reasons were valid to some degree. There would always be some nomad groups who preferred to trade and others who preferred to raid. Which group was dominant would then depend on how the Chinese government managed the Great Wall - as a barrier to trade, or as a meeting point for trade.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Actually, the northern nomads are considered "bandits" if you want to simply put it. Because the northern steppes are not suitable for crops, and only good for herding, the nomads rely their food on the animals. But in order to obtain more wealth and food, they would have to raid China, when China refused to trade with them.