130 replies to this topic

[ahxiang]

wow, T-98, a very informative article, and your choice to put it here for discussion is right. I m sure many can't wait to throw out their theories about the civil war. I think this article is balanced and tells truths (at least not bias intentionally). You will see many different versions about the civil war from other members here.

Wikepedia completely screwed up China's civil war history.

The only way to straighten up China's histpry is to detail each battle and campaign.

An example will be to re-examine the breakout debacle of the Chinese Communist Central Plains Army under Li Xiannian.

http://www.republica...BreakoutDebacle

If you read CCP version of victor's history, you won't explain how Communist military leader Li Xiannian lost his chips for the civil wars and forfeited the chance to become a founding "marshal" of the PRC.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

I think Wikepedia history of the civil war is a world wide view that did not neglect the CCP nor the KMT accounts of events. It was a fact that from 1920 -1936 the CCP were being defeated by the KMT. Both the KMT and the CCP were getting foreign support the KMT were more well organized and discipline, but the KMT were facing a bigger challenge than the CCP they are: some western super powers were plotting against the KMT, Japan continued incursion to China with threat of a full scale war plus trying to modernize China and introduce social reforms. While the CCP had only one problem to fight the KMT and to do that they must sabotage every efforts the KMT does to modernize China including and I suspect colluding with Japan.

If we read the CCP accounts of events from 1920 -1937, it will clearly show how disfucntional the CCP were that resulted with the red army being driven all the way back to the northern borders this incident will be use by the CCP as a successful propaganda known as the Long March.

The Long March (Traditional Chinese: 長征; Simplified Chinese: 长征; pinyin: Chángzhēng) was a massive military retreat undertaken by the Red Armies of the Communist Party of China (CPC), the forerunner of the People's Liberation Army, to evade the pursuit of the Kuomintang (KMT or Nationalist Party) army. There was not one Long March, but several, as various Communist armies in the south escaped to the north and west. The most well known is the march from Jiangxi province which began in October 1934. The First Front Army of the Chinese Soviet Republic, led by an inexperienced military commission, was on the brink of complete annihilation by Chiang Kai-shek's troops in their stronghold in Jiangxi province. The Communists, under the eventual command of Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai, escaped in a circling retreat to the west and north, which reportedly traversed some 12,500 kilometers (8,000 miles) over 370 days. The route passed through some of the most difficult terrain of western China by traveling west, then north, to Shaanxi.

The Long March began the ascent to power of Mao Zedong, whose leadership during the retreat gained him the support of the members of the party. The bitter struggles of the Long March, which was completed by only one-tenth of the force that left Jiangxi, would come to represent a significant episode in the history of the Communist Party of China, and would seal the personal prestige of Mao and his supporters as the new leaders of the party in the following decades.

The Red Army in 1934Although the literal translation of the Chinese Cháng Zhēng is “Long March”, official publications of the People's Republic of China refer to "The Great March of the Red Army" (Chinese traditional: 紅軍長征, Chinese simplified: 红军长征, pinyin: Hóng Jūn Cháng Zhēng). The Long March most commonly refers to the transfer of the main group of the First (or Central) Red Army, which included the leaders of the Communist Party of China, from Yudu in the province of Jiangxi, to Yan'an in Shaanxi. In this sense, the Long March lasted from 16 October 1934 to 19 October 1935. In a broader view, the Long March included two other forces retreating under pressure from the Kuomintang: the Second Red Army and the Fourth Red Army. The retreat of all the Red Armies was not complete until 22 October 1936, when the three forces linked up in Shaanxi.

The divisions of the "Chinese Workers' and Peasants' Red Army" (紅軍) were named according to historical circumstances, sometimes in a nonconsecutive way. Early Communist units often formed by defection from existing Kuomintang forces, keeping their original designations. By the time of the Long March, numerous small units had been organized into three unified groups, the First Red Army (紅一方面軍/红一方面军/Hóng Yī Fāngmiàn Jūn), the Second Red Army (紅二方面軍/红二方面军/Hóng Èr Fāngmiàn Jūn) and the Fourth Red Army (紅四方面軍/红四方面军/Hóng Sì Fāngmiàn Jūn).^[1] Some translations refer to these same units as the “First Front Red Army", “Second Front Red Army” and “Fourth Front Red Army" to distinguish them from the earlier organizational divisions. The First Red Army formed from the First, Third and Fifth Army Groups in southern Kiangsi under command of Bo Gu and Li De. When the Fourth Red Army under Zhang Guotao was formed in the Szechuan-Shensi border area from several smaller units, no standard nomenclature of the armies of the Communist Party existed; moreover, during the Chinese Civil War central control of separate Communist-controlled enclaves within China was limited. After the organization of these first two main forces, the Second Red Army formed in eastern Kweichow by unifying the Second and Sixth Army Groups under He Long and Jen Pi-shih. A “Third Red Army" was never established. The three armies would maintain their historical designation as the First, Second and Fourth Red Armies until Communist military forces were nominally integrated into the National Revolutionary Army, forming the Eighth Route Army and the New Fourth Army, during the Second Sino-Japanese War from 1937 to 1945.

[ahxiang]

I think Wikepedia history of the civil war is a world wide view that did not neglect the CCP nor the KMT accounts of events. It was a fact that from 1920 -1936 the CCP were being defeated by the KMT. Both the KMT and the CCP were getting foreign support the KMT were more well organized and discipline, but the KMT were facing a bigger challenge than the CCP they are: some western super powers were plotting against the KMT, Japan continued incursion to China with threat of a full scale war plus trying to modernize China and introduce social reforms. While the CCP had only one problem to fight the KMT and to do that they must sabotage every efforts the KMT does to modernize China including and I suspect colluding with Japan.

If we read the CCP accounts of events from 1920 -1937, it will clearly show how disfucntional the CCP were that resulted with the red army being driven all the way back to the northern borders this incident will be use by the CCP as a successful propaganda known as the Long March.

Wikepedia history of the civil war is a c**p put together by hundreds of people with different agenda or people who had received disinformation or dysinformation.

History was written by victors. Chinese had a tradition of "taking out the roots of grass". Ming Dynasty's seven expeditions to the West Seas were commonly known to Chinese for hundreds of years as an attempt for Emperor Yongle to seek out the deposed nephew emperor who was rumored to have fled overseas. Today, Chinese Communists are bent on taking out Taiwan for the exact same reason, i.e., taking out any historical records that might contradict with the official Chinese history [including the civil war history].

To understand China's civil war history, at minimum, one needs to look into the Yalta Betrayal. Things that changed China's fate were rooted in this betrayal. Events that ocurred after the betrayal were unfortunately like the hangmen's noose that choked China every step of the way.

Lots of variables could have reversed China's fate. For one thing: Chinese Communists had a nationwide "uprising" scheduled for late August of 1945 across the nation, including Nanking and Shanghai. Should Chiang Kai-shek have refused to sign the Sino-Russian Treaty, then Stalin would not pressure Mao into a peace talk in Chungking. Then, should CCP actually conduct the "uprisings", they would be quelled immediately by combined troops of the Nationalist Government, Japanese, Puppet Troops, and Americans. Then Chinese Communists would become history. -The question mark here is: why did Chiang sign the treaty against a nation of protests??? That's purported American pressure, from Truman direct.

Along the way, things could be mitigated. Why? Chiang did not have to approve the coming of G Marshall. Chen Lifu was against it. Chiang made a mistake in assuming that Marshall's coming to China would afford the Americans a chance to see who CCP were. He was wrong.

Even after Marsall's coming, things could be changed. Chiang could approve the 51-49 joint venture with Russians. Unfortunately, the killing of engineer Zhang Xinfu by the Chinese Communists in Jan 1946 made any Sino-Russian compromise impossible. Stalin, angry over China's disapproval of 51-49 joint ventures, resorted to open suppor for CCP.

More turn was possible after this. Should ROC have been successful in Manchuria 1946 by driving to Harbin after Sipingjie, there would be 65% chance of unification of China [with no domino effect of civil wars] vs 35% chance of Russian intervention [already onging in Chinese Turkistan]. I had re-studied the Manchurian campaign. It seems to me that Chinese mainland historians already figured out that there was a secret agreement that Russians would participate in direct war should Lin Biao be driven from Harbin. On the part of Chiang Kai-shek, there was definite documentation proving that Chiang was planning to drive Lin Biao to the strip between Qiqihar and USSR, but still intended to keep the Chinese Communists within the border.

Things screwed up right there when Marshall successfully pressed on with a ceasefire. Yang Kuisong had reserch on the shipments of weapons to Shandong from USSR and North Korea. The civil wars intensified with the shipment of 100-200 train carriages of weapons in 1946 alone.

This is China's fate. The imperialists, Red and White, wanted to wreak havoc to China. This fate is to continue. Only after you re-examine the history and let every Chinese understand the cause and effect, will there be a chance for China to reverse its fate

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

According to Chang and Halliday, under Mao's leadership CPC officials arranged ceasefires with the Japanese in central areas to protect Japanese train lines and allow time for an increase in CPC membership, all while claiming to be fighting the Japanese, and that as of late 1940, Mao was so focused on opposition to the KMT that he confided to top CPC officials that he wished for continued Japanese occupation of China. ^[17] Mao further consolidated power over the Communist Party in 1942 by launching the Zheng Feng, or "Rectification" campaign against rival CPC members such as Wang Ming, Wang Shiwei, and Ding Ling. Also while in Yan'an, Mao divorced He Zizhen and married the actress Lan Ping, who would become known as Jiang Qing.

During the Sino-Japanese War, Mao Zedong's strategies were opposed by both Chiang Kai-shek and the United States. The US regarded Chiang as an important ally, able to help shorten the war by engaging the Japanese occupiers in China. Chiang, in contrast, sought to build the ROC army for the certain conflict with Mao's communist forces after the end of World War II. This fact was not understood well in the US, and precious lend-lease armaments continued to be allocated to the Kuomintang. In turn, Mao spent part of the war (as to whether it was most or only a little is disputed) fighting the Kuomintang for control of certain parts of China. Both the Communists and Nationalists have been criticised for fighting amongst themselves rather than allying against the Japanese Imperial Army. However the Nationalists were better equipped and did most of the fighting against the Japanese army in China.^[18]

Willy Lam stated that during the war with Japan:

<sup>The great majority of casualties sustained by Chinese soldiers were borne by KMT, not Communist divisions. Mao and other guerrilla leaders decided at the time to conserve their strength for the "larger struggle" of taking over all of China once the Japanese Imperial Army was decimated by the U.S.-led Allied Forces.[18]

http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/13999.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2102-1626700,00.html




My take is that there is strong suspicion that Mao's Red Army colluded with Japan that resulted them winning the civil war.</sup>

[ahxiang]

According to Chang and Halliday, under Mao's leadership CPC officials arranged ceasefires with the Japanese in central areas to protect Japanese train lines and allow time for an increase in CPC membership, all while claiming to be fighting the Japanese, and that as of late 1940, Mao was so focused on opposition to the KMT that he confided to top CPC officials that he wished for continued Japanese occupation of China. ^[17] Mao further consolidated power over the Communist Party in 1942 by launching the Zheng Feng, or "Rectification" campaign against rival CPC members such as Wang Ming, Wang Shiwei, and Ding Ling. Also while in Yan'an, Mao divorced He Zizhen and married the actress Lan Ping, who would become known as Jiang Qing.

During the Sino-Japanese War, Mao Zedong's strategies were opposed by both Chiang Kai-shek and the United States. The US regarded Chiang as an important ally, able to help shorten the war by engaging the Japanese occupiers in China. Chiang, in contrast, sought to build the ROC army for the certain conflict with Mao's communist forces after the end of World War II. This fact was not understood well in the US, and precious lend-lease armaments continued to be allocated to the Kuomintang. In turn, Mao spent part of the war (as to whether it was most or only a little is disputed) fighting the Kuomintang for control of certain parts of China. Both the Communists and Nationalists have been criticised for fighting amongst themselves rather than allying against the Japanese Imperial Army. However the Nationalists were better equipped and did most of the fighting against the Japanese army in China.^[18]

Willy Lam stated that during the war with Japan:

<sup>The great majority of casualties sustained by Chinese soldiers were borne by KMT, not Communist divisions. Mao and other guerrilla leaders decided at the time to conserve their strength for the "larger struggle" of taking over all of China once the Japanese Imperial Army was decimated by the U.S.-led Allied Forces.[18]

http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/13999.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2102-1626700,00.html




My take is that there is strong suspicion that Mao's Red Army colluded with Japan that resulted them winning the civil war.</sup>

Chinese communists had top agents working inside of Japanese military and puppet Nanking government. Pan Hannian the top agent had an office in Shanghai under Japanese protection. Pan Hannian moved communist representatives out of HK through Japanese liaison. There is no dispute about the collusion.

Both Wang Ming and Vladimirov had observations of Chinese communist contacts with Japanese and puppet Nanking regime.

In any case, Japanese never treated Chinese communists seriously, knowing that Chinese communists never intended to make enemies with Japanese. Japanese had an understanding with communists in that the major railways like Tientsin-Pukow Railway should never be disrupted.

Mao's collusion with Japanese was something Stalin did not appreciate either. Mao was very much written off by Stalin during the war.

Chiang Kai-shek did not treat the communists as a serious risk either. Because Chiang knew it was a bluff that communists ever possessed 400,000-500,000 troops.

Vladimirov Diaries repeatedly pointed out that communists had a little above 300,000 troops.

The number is completely corroboarated by headcounts under each and every communist general during the initial phase of the civil war, from Aug to Oct 1945. I counted it one by and one.

at http://www.republica...na.org/war.html I pointed out that Mao Tse-tung himself had betrayed the actual strength of communist forces in first demanding various units of 8RA divisions and columns as well as detachments to supply 150,000 "refined" troops for attacking wartime interim capital Chungking and subsequently lowered the par to 70,000 troops in late 1940.For New 4th Corps [New 4th Army], Mao Tse-tung was demanding N4C to supply 20,000 "refined" troops. Actual N4C troops numbered probably no more than 30,000 in total - consisting of Chen Yi and Su Yu's 8000 troops [i.e., First Detachment, Second Detachment and Third Detachment] that routed Haan Deqing's Jiangsu troops at the Huangqiao Battle, less than 9,000 combat + 2,000 noncombat at N4C headquarters, and unspecified number under Fourth Detachment and Fifth Detachment as well as under Li Xiannian's guerrillas in Hubei Province. )

What's clear is that the above numbers were the apex of acclaimed communist troops. The actual numbers were much lower. For example, Peng Xuefeng's N4C Sixth Detachment, converted to 8RA Fourth Column, had 5000 guns and less than 10,000 men after three setbacks. After three major setbacks, Peng Xuefeng evacuated to Anhui-Jiangsu border, and would not return till three years later, only to get killed in civil war under a slogan that it was not too late for a gentleman to take revenge [against government troops] in three years [by taking advantage of Japanese Ichigo Campaign].

If you want to know what communists did before the Wan-nan Incident, http://www.republica...an-Incident.pdf then look for the section on http://www.republica...FROM-WITHIN.pdf

After the German attack at Soviet Union, Mao revised his policy to show some restraint in attacking government troops. In any case, communists had ceased its war against Japanese, after the Hundred Regiment Campaign. The only reason that communist forces had to fight a railway disruption war was Japanese success in paving railways and highways across North China after communist forces routed all government troops and government guerrillas across Hebei-Shandong-Shanxi provinces. Per Xie Youtian research, the actual communist strike regiments exerted to the campaign would total about 22 regiments. (Per Xie Youtian research, the damages assessed by Japanese were far below what communist propaganda claimed: 48 bridges blew up on Zheng-tai Railway, 7 train stations, 40 points of sabotage, 2 water towers, 7 tunnels; Ping-han Railway suffered 19 bridges, 67 spots, 12 stations, 38km phone line; and Tong-pu Railway had destruction of 6 bridges, 7 spots, one station, 3 water towers. )

The civil war could very well be reversed should Chiang Kai-shek be able to take preemptive strike, including partial peace with Japan, to segregate the Chinese communists from the Russians.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

I tend to agree with you in almost every aspects except for this one:

Chiang Kai-shek did not treat the communists as a serious risk either.

Chiang wanted to concentrate his main forces to destroy once and for all the Red Army which he had them corner and would have succeeded, and use his rear guards plus apply aggressive diplomacy to stall & slow the Japanese.

Unlike Russia, Stalin success in defeating Germany was because the Russian were able to unite the entire USSR while China was divided between the KMT and the Communist. If Chiang had destroyed the Red Army there is a strong chance that Japan would have been push out of China by a united Chinese army with a strong possibility that KMT forces luanching an invasion of Japan notably Okinawa and the off shore islands.

Edited by Wan Ren aka Danny, 14 January 2008 - 01:33 PM.

[ahxiang]

I tend to agree with you in almost every aspects except for this one:



Chiang wanted to concentrate his main forces to destroy once and for all the Red Army which he had them corner and would have succeeded, and use his rear guards plus apply aggressive diplomacy to stall & slow the Japanese.

Unlike Russia, Stalin success in defeating Germany was because the Russian were able to unite the entire USSR while China was divided between the KMT and the Communist. If Chiang had destroyed the Red Army there is a strong chance that Japan would have been push out of China by a united Chinese army with a strong possibility that KMT forces luanching an invasion of Japan notably Okinawa and the off shore islands.

First, Stalin defeated Germany because of massive American aid, not because of the unity he had over the USSR.

To revive the Soviet military, Stalin revoked the party commissar system from the military.

Russian initial defeat was rooted in the purge of generals and officers than amounted to hundreds of thousands, which was a suicide.

Let me give you an example how to how much the Americn aid to Russians was. Let's say altogether American overseas aid was 100 billion [actual number much higher], then 80% of it went to Britain, 20% went to USSR, and less than 1% went to China or more exactly about 0.115 billion or 115 million USD.

The American aid sent to Stalin was later rerouted to Mao Tse-tung and Chinese communists.

This is how Mao Tse-tung could have Lin Biao switch equipment to American gears from Russian and Japanese, prior to the entry into Peking.

Chiang Kai-shek, up to January 1939, was still contemplating on so-called RONG GONG, 溶共. Repeatedly Chiang wanted Zhou Enlai and Wang Ming to persuade Mao into a combination of two parties. There is utterly no truth in Chiang's reserving his strength for a civil war.

When communists went beyond Chiang's tolerance point, Chiang planned to teach communists a lesson. However, on both occasions, Japanese came in to disrupt Chiang's plan.

E.g., during the first "anti-communist climax" [communist terminology], Chiang wanted government troops to go to Mt Taihangshan to beef up positions that were lost by Sun Dianying, Zhu Huaibing and Lu Zhonglin. (details on communist attacks at on http://www.republica...FROM-WITHIN.pdf ) Japanese immediately launched a Southern Shanxi Campaign to stop Chinese troops from going to Taihangshan. And. during the second "anti-communist climax", Japanese launched a massive Southern Henan Campaign to disrupt Chiang's plan to force communist troops to the northern Yellow River bank.

In Tokyo, Japanese repeatedly broadcast that Northern China was Japan's domain, and Chiang's scheme to have communists move there was unacceptable. You got it?

Chiang, after discerning the close synch-up between Japanese and communists, very much abandoned his plan to do anything about the communists. Communists themselves went through a tough time with Japanese blockade and had to live with the presence of Japanese traffic ditch, blockhouses and "weichihui" - the peace preservation society. All commmunist commanders were recalled to Yenan for three years of Rectification Movement, by the way.

The communists, behind-Japanese-line, adopted the so-called DOUBLE-DEALING policies. I.e., LIANG MIAN policies. Every communist books proudly talked about its double-dealing policies. Japanese did not give a dammnnn about the communists throughout the war.

Chiang lost the civil wars due to the Anglo-American and Russian conspiracy. There is no slight doubt in this.

Edited by ahxiang, 14 January 2008 - 11:20 PM.

[ahxiang]

I am uploading "Vladimirov Diaries" here.

This is a Must-read to know about Mao-Tse-tung, communists and their military.


http://www.republica...irovDiaries.pdf

This book is about 20MB in size.

[WangWu]

If possible, I would like some details on the battle of Sipingjie, the sources I've read so far have been ranging in their descriptions of the exact numbers involved.

Edited by WangWu, 21 January 2008 - 09:22 PM.

[ahxiang]

If possible, I would like some details on the battle of Sipingjie, the sources I've read so far have been ranging in their descriptions of the exact numbers involved.

on another thread, I had discussions about Sipingjie Battle, which was fought by three-prong Nationalist Army. Mao's order at the time, termed Defending China's Madrid [Sipingjie], was a Russian instruction. Dozens of train carriages of mutions were shipped to Jiilin from North Korea for communists to use. Nationalist airforce blew it up at the traint station.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

I am uploading "Vladimirov Diaries" here.

This is a Must-read to know about Mao-Tse-tung, communists and their military.


http://www.republica...irovDiaries.pdf

This book is about 20MB in size.

Darn I need it translated.

[Andy Lau]

I always wondered about this question, but why did many troops transfer from the KMT to the CCP during the end of the Chinese Civil War? If the soldiers had not done that, the KMT would have won the war and remained in power >.<

[T98G]

I always wondered about this question, but why did many troops transfer from the KMT to the CCP during the end of the Chinese Civil War? If the soldiers had not done that, the KMT would have won the war and remained in power >.<

Soldier's salary was one factor, the KMT pays its troops by cash that becomes useless as inflation goes up while the CCP pays its troops by barter.

[Andy Lau]

i see, but did change of political view.. was a factor as well? like did the soldiers later believed that communism was a better solution or something like that?

[T98G]

i see, but did change of political view.. was a factor as well? like did the soldiers later believed that communism was a better solution or something like that?

Political view was a small factor, basically CCP did less blundering than KMT as well as fought better than KMT troops as demonstrated in the Korean war. In North east China, Chiang allow his forces to be surrounded and come under siege in the cities. Then KMT soldiers just turn when Chiang order his air force to bomb military hardware along with the troops when defeat was inevitable.

Edited by T98G, 26 January 2008 - 02:52 AM.