130 replies to this topic

[somechineseperson]

"All War is based on deception" --- Sunzi, The Art of War.

Does the fact that the CCP utilised deceptive practices in its struggles against the KMT fundamentally discredit it? I don't think so.

One key element that Ahxiang completely ignores is the ideological differences between the CCP and the KMT. The CCP isn't perfect by any means, but it fought for the majority of the Chinese people, which mostly consisted of poor peasants in those days, while the KMT only fought for the rich and powerful elites. This alone would provide the justification for CCP's possession of the Mandate of Heaven, to use a classical Chinese political concept, since in the Shujing (Book of Ancient History) it is stated:

"Heaven sees through the eyes of the people. Heaven hears through the ears of the people."

All-under-heaven belongs to no-one but to all people in all-under-heaven. Therefore the political force that fights for the masses of people deserves to hold power.

Since this is a Chinese History Forum, I shall use classical Chinese philosophical concepts liberally.

The fact of the matter remains that the People's Republic of China possesses the Mandate of Heaven, and is the sole legitimate ruling political force of all China.

Edited by somechineseperson, 25 April 2009 - 05:31 PM.

[ahxiang]

"All War is based on deception" --- Sunzi, The Art of War.

Does the fact that the CCP utilised deceptive practices in its struggles against the KMT fundamentally discredit it? I don't think so.

One key element that Ahxiang completely ignores is the ideological differences between the CCP and the KMT. The CCP isn't perfect by any means, but it fought for the majority of the Chinese people, which mostly consisted of poor peasants in those days, while the KMT only fought for the rich and powerful elites. This alone would provide the justification for CCP's possession of the Mandate of Heaven, to use a classical Chinese political concept, since in the Shujing (Book of Ancient History) it is stated:

"Heaven sees through the eyes of the people. Heaven hears through the ears of the people."

All-under-heaven belongs to no-one but to all people in all-under-heaven. Therefore the political force that fights for the masses of people deserves to hold power.

Since this is a Chinese History Forum, I shall use classical Chinese philosophical concepts liberally.

The fact of the matter remains that the People's Republic of China possesses the Mandate of Heaven, and is the sole legitimate ruling political force of all China.

Nobody rebutted the "cunningness" of the CCP or that preached by Sun-zi.

What you got wrong here was the claim that the CCP got the power through the support of the people whereas the truth was that the CCP ascended to the power because of the "Double Jeopardy" that doomed China and the ROC, i.e., i) the arms embargo by the US [and the world] against the ROC, and ii) Russians' unlimited supply of arms and weapons [and Russians' 400 million USD aid] to the CCP.

On chinahistoryforum, you better present facts to make your points.

FYI, you may want to start by reading the materials linked below and then we could have meaningful discussions. Google each and every name at the end of the passage and know what they did to China and how they destroyed China by formulating the United States' China policies.

http://www.archive.o...10unit_djvu.txt

SCOPE OF SOVIET ACTIVITY EST THE UNITED STATES 329

Miss Russell (reading) :

If American policy in China continues along present lines, we shall be helping to
lay the basis for a "bloody civil war that will undermine much of what we have
sacrificed for and won in the past 3^2 years.

Americans have learned in the most painful way possible that a small mci-
dent" in China 8 years ago affected every man, woman, and child throughout
the world. This time we must use our energies to prevent the recurrence of
other "incidents" that can lead only to the destruction of the peace we must
have in China and everywhere.

Today our Government spokesmen and military leaders in Chma are adopting
a policy that would not be approved by millions of Americans. They are lending
political and military assistance to the Kuomintang dictatorship which has re-
sisted democratic reform in China and has given an order to Japanese and quis-
ling troops to hold their weapons, and if necessary use them rather than sur-
render to the patriotic Eighth Route and New Fourth Annies that have assumed
the greatest burden of Allied fighting in north and central China. This policy on
the part of our American representatives in China serves to wipe out the efforts
of the Chinese people for a democratic and unified country. When General Stil-
well was in China our help was also one-sided, but we were at least trying to get
sympathetic contact with all forces fighting the Japanese in China. Now we are
meddling, not to accelerate but to hold back the democratic working out of the
Chinese situation. We may well find ourselves committed to a new Franco in
an Asiatic Spain. .

In order to bring the urgent message for action before the American people,
the Committee for a Democratic Policy Toward China is now being formed. As
its first step, this committee proposes to send an appeal to President Truman
urging that policy in China be rectified. You are asked to add your name to the
appeal and to get clubs, organizations, and individuals to write immediately
to President Truman or take any other appropriate action.

To keep you acquainted with developments in China, the Committee for a
Democratic Policy Toward China will issue regular news bulletins, the first of
which is enclosed. , .^

We know that you will agree that this new committee must spread its work
throughout the country to acquaint the public with the dangers that lie ahead
and arouse people to act quickly. In order to do the job well, we need your
help— first, add your name to the appeal on the flap of the enclosed envelope, and
second, send us your contribution. Without funds we cannot carry out the neces-
sary work, so send whatever you can immediately.

And this is signed by Leland Stowe and Richard Watts, Jr.
The sponsors of the committee :

Dr. Phyllis Ackerman, T. A. Bisson, Israel Epstein, Frederick V. Field, Talitha
Gerlach, *Rev. Jack McMichael, Artliur Upliam Pope, Ilona Ralf Sues, Lawrence
E Salisburv, Michael Sayers, Vincent Sheehan, Mrs. Edgar Snow, Maxwell S.
Stewart, Leland Stowe, Rose Terlin, Richard Watts, Jr., Dr. Max Yergan.

Edited by ahxiang, 26 April 2009 - 12:26 AM.

[somechineseperson]

And what is your point? What the Americans said is true to a significant extent, since the right-wing KMT was responsible for the great famine between 1942 and 1943, in which 2 million perished. It was also corrupt without hope and had no element of democracy what-so-ever.

Just so you know, I'm actually a democratic socialist rather than a Maoist. But I still support the socialist state that is the People's Republic of China.

[somechineseperson]

Ahxiang,

If you are really such a Chinese patriot, why are you wasting time on conspiracy theories based on past history?

What is gone is gone, and nothing can be done to change history, for better or for worse.

Why not focus on present-day issues like the selling-out of Chinese industry by the corrupt capitalist elites in mainland China today?

[mariusj]

Ahxiang,

If you are really such a Chinese patriot, why are you wasting time on conspiracy theories based on past history?

What is gone is gone, and nothing can be done to change history, for better or for worse.

Why not focus on present-day issues like the selling-out of Chinese industry by the corrupt capitalist elites in mainland China today?

You know what, you are right.

Why study history at all?

Who needs history? What is gone is done, and nothing can be done to change it, for better or for worse.

Who needs this history forum? All we talk about are wasting time on conspiracy theories based on past history. General should just disband and we should all focusing on present day issue.


Oh. Wait.

I know. Forum rules say this is a ACADEMIC HISTORY FORUM. And no present day political stuff.

I wonder.

[ahxiang]

And what is your point? What the Americans said is true to a significant extent, since the right-wing KMT was responsible for the great famine between 1942 and 1943, in which 2 million perished. It was also corrupt without hope and had no element of democracy what-so-ever.

Just so you know, I'm actually a democratic socialist rather than a Maoist. But I still support the socialist state that is the People's Republic of China.

You are wrong again here in claiming that the ROC Chinese government was responsible for the famine death of 2 million. Throughout Chinese history, famine had occurred innumerous times. Cannibalism had been on record dozens of times in past 3000 years. In 1959, China had cannibalism, as well, as a result of the Great Leap Forward.

Let me give you some history lessons.

In 1929, when CCP instigated the war of Li Zongren rebellion against Chiang Kai-shek, and when CCP instigated the KMT Reorganizers' war against Chiang Kai-shek, and when CCP instigated Feng Yuxiang into a rebellion against Chiang [and in 1930 instigated the Wars of the Central Plains], there was a big famine in Gansu Province and Suiyuan Province, areas controlled by nobody else other than Feng Yuxiang and Yan Xishan et al., on which occasion 30 million Chinese died of famine. Edgar Snow and Rewi Alley visited Suiyuan, and they blamed the famine on Chiang Kai-shek and joined hands with GRU agent Smedley in sabotaging China's cause - see my comment on Edgar Snow somewhere else.

In 1940s, when China was blockaded by Japanese and Russians alike, Fairbank and Adler hijacked the US Treasury Department in obstructing China's financial development plan, i.e., controlling the inflation - which went out of control in war time as a result of loss of customs revenues as well as expenses on war and the supplies to the Americans [INVERSE Lend-Lease, that is]. At the same time famine broke out in Henan Province, similar famine broke out in Vietnam (under Japanese occupation) and India (under British colonization), with similar or higher death toll.

You can't right the wrongs of China without rectifying the forgeries of history.

In previous message, you claimed CCP had done good for the people and got the support of the people, which contradicted what you claimed here to be someone "democratic" and someone who disapproved what CCP is doing today, i.e., selling out the people's interests.

- What you don't know is that CCP was behind every mutiny, rebellion and sabotage from 1919 to 1949, including the Marco Polo bridge Incident, and everything they achieved was through the power of guns, not the support of the people.

China and Chinese people could have a bright future - as long as the coming new generations of leaders are to realize and correct those wrongs.

Edited by ahxiang, 26 April 2009 - 10:15 PM.

[somechineseperson]

mariusj,

I don't know why you are being sarcastic towards me. It should be clear that what ahxiang spends page after page writing here is no longer any kind of academic history trying to be objective, but heavily laden with political agenda and conspiracy theories. My response hopefully can restore some balance in this thread.

He is clearly not studying the past for the sake of studying the past, but to use the past to make political points about the present. In that case if one desires to comment on the present politically, it is far better to directly focus on contemporary issues than to bring out all the old accounts of history out again under a highly dubious and biased interpretative lensing.

[somechineseperson]

ahxiang,

the CCP of the past that has done good things for the people is not the same as the CCP of today. I don't have illusions in the CCP regime of today either. I think basically June 4th 1989 was the turning point. Even the genuine Maoists in China are calling for a revolution these days.

Also, you are mistaken if you think we can rely on the leaders, it's the Chinese people that one must rely on.

Edited by somechineseperson, 01 May 2009 - 01:40 PM.

[ahxiang]

ahxiang,

the CCP of the past that has done good things for the people is not the same as the CCP of today. I don't have illusions in the CCP regime of today either. I think basically June 4th 1989 was the turning point. Even the genuine Maoists in China are calling for a revolution these days.

Also, you are mistaken if you think we can rely on the leaders, it's the Chinese people that one must rely on.

You were wrong in thinking that CCP was good before and bad now. This is a party created and nurtured by the ruthless Russians for the purpose of furthering the agenda of first the Jewish and Zionist Russians and then dictator Stalin. (When Slavic Russians came to power, after Stalin's purge of the Jewish and Zionist Russians and after Georgian Stalin's death, PR China was fortunate to be out of the grips of the Sino-Soviet 50-50 joint ventures as well as the semi-enslavement but did not appreciate what the good Russians did for China.) I don't have interest to reiterate what CCP did from the very beginning. In the very early days, there was the assassination attempt on Wellington Koo, conducted by Li Dazhao's gang. For what? To wrestle Outer Mongolia from China.

For Chinese people who still have delusions about what the CCP did in the early days, a good reference site would be
http://freeman2.com/ccha12.htm
where you would find a copy of historian Guo Hualun's book on CCP
《中共史論》目錄 　郭華倫
Historian Guo Hualun's book, 30 years ago, had corroborated what I discovered among the bio of various CCP generals, namely, every Red Army was based on the mutiny of government troops, not some peasants.

For non-Chinese who had delusions about what they read about "China Reporting",
http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn2614940 (None of the American reporters showed appreciation by ever mentioning they just needed to pay monthly $1 for free meals and $3 for lodging to live in the "press hostel" that was furnished by the Republic of China.)
you may want to read Times report on Betty Graham's mysterious death in China
http://www.time.com/...iid=chix-sphere


Now, why I said we need the sons and grandsons of the Chinese leaders to get awoken to the truth of history. Because they are in similar state as you, i.e., blindfolded. Maybe majority of them will continue the pursuit of leisure and hedonism by riding on the power that was inherited from their fathers and grandfathers. But I hold out hope that someday one or few of them would reflect on the past history to know what their fathers and grandfathers did to China and then change course for good.

About your claim that "people" should be counted on for changing China for good. This is a result of continuing Mao's line about "people being the mover of history" but in reality, people were mere fodder of war - Have you checked the more than halving of population in Jiangxi Soviet? (link http://www.chinahist...p...t&p=4958000 ) Read my posting on the death of 270,000 Sichuan people in the hands of Zhang Guotao's Red Army - linked at http://www.chinahist...p...t&p=4957308

Edited by ahxiang, 02 May 2009 - 10:14 PM.

[somechineseperson]

Why should Outer Mongolia necessarily be a part of China? Duan Qirui occupied Outer Mongolia by force after the fall of the Qing and humiliated the Mongol Khan by forcing him to kowtow in front of the Five Races Under One Union flag. Why should other ethnicities submit to the Han? All ethnicities should be equal.

"Don't do to others what you don't wish others to do to you".

[ahxiang]

Why should Outer Mongolia necessarily be a part of China? Duan Qirui occupied Outer Mongolia by force after the fall of the Qing and humiliated the Mongol Khan by forcing him to kowtow in front of the Five Races Under One Union flag. Why should other ethnicities submit to the Han? All ethnicities should be equal.

"Don't do to others what you don't wish others to do to you".

I don't know where you are from. I have no memory of your stand or viewpoints till reading some stuff on this thread. FYI, I had rebutted someone who claimed to be of nomadic blood on this forum regarding the Mongol and Manchu slaughter of Chinese Nation.

The significance of Outer Mongolia issue was that it was part of the Yalta resolution of 1945 as well as part of Russo-Japanese secret treaties of 1907-1910. You don't want to believe that if we Chinese gave the Mongol brothers independence, they would get it. They would have no way to be out of the shadow of either Russians or Japanese, i.e., pawns. More, after 200-300 years pleasure-seeking in Peking, none of the Mongol princes would have wanted to move their home back to the steppe, which was exactly what happened when the real Mongol power holders in Peking influenced their tomb-watcher cousins to get out of the White Russian camp for the ROC at the time of Russian October Revolution.

About Mongolia. Sedentary Chinese had being moving north with Western missionaries across Inner Mongolia and the border of Inner and Outer Mongolia from Peking treaty of 1860s to 1911. Do not assume that only Mongols lived in that place.

As far as the assassination on Koo was concerned, it was about Koo's defense of ROC interests on both Outer Mongolia and Chinese-Eastern RR, as well as Li Dazhao gang's selling their souls to Russians. Li Dazhao recruited at least 100+ GRU agents all his life time.

You may say what the heck were the Chinese doing in Manchuria. That's the land belonging to Manchus. Manchuria, Chinese Eatsern RR were the stake sold out at the Yalta. And, there was no real Manchus left in Manchuria. From 1644 to 1850s, massive Chinese migration to Manhcuria had occurred, similar to what happened in history of past 5000 years. In Wu Sangui Biography, there was a passage about Wu followers being exiled to Manchuria from Southwest China, and you would see real Manchus had already deserted their hometown for pleasure in Peking and China.

Edited by ahxiang, 04 May 2009 - 03:42 PM.

[Optimus]

- What you don't know is that CCP was behind every mutiny, rebellion and sabotage from 1919 to 1949, including the Marco Polo bridge Incident, and everything they achieved was through the power of guns, not the support of the people.

China and Chinese people could have a bright future - as long as the coming new generations of leaders are to realize and correct those wrongs.

CCP involvement in Marco Polo bridge Incident?

can you elaborate more on this?

[ahxiang]

CCP involvement in Marco Polo bridge Incident?

can you elaborate more on this?

You may want to read Zhang Xiaohong and Xu Wenlong's book for a feel first. This is a starter. Then you could check into Japanese foreign ministry records, as well as Imai Takeo's memoirs, to corroborate the events that happened in 1935 to 1937. You would be amazed as how the Chinese GRU agents operated against Japan in Southern/Central China as well as Northern China/Manchuria. The sabotage and assassinations were well coordinated. Zhang Xiaohong and Xu Wenlong's book linked up the Chinese GRU agents with their pals in Europe, Japan and USA, and would present you a panoramic view of Soviet espionage in the 1930s. Note Chinese books invariably claimed that those studs worked for Comintern. The truth was the agents inside of China reported direct to GRU, not the OMS under the Comintern. The studs in Europ and USA, who had French, British, German, Romanian, Polish and American wives, worked under the so-called "Chinese language bureaus" of CPUSA, German communists, British communists, French communists and etc.

http://www.bookschina.com/1362929.htm

红色国际特工

红色国际特工

查看大图

作 者： 张晓宏/许文龙
I S B N： 7806996435
页 数： 262
开 本： 大16开
封面形式： 简裝本
出 版 社： 哈尔滨出版社 本社特价书
出版日期： 2006-3-1

[brightness]

Ahxiang,

Very much enjoying reading some of your writings. I agree with you that there are ample evidence that CCP was bought and paid for by outside interests at the time of its founding, and at least through much of the early years (pre-1949). One fine point I'd like to raise though: the foreign supporters / controllers of CCP in its early years may not have been communists themselves . . . but supporting a party that espouses an unworkable economic system as a way to retard the development of China. It's the same policy as employed by western bankers in their support of Bolsheviks in Russia. The bankers and the German Kaiser were not communists. They just did not want a nationalistic Russia to develop into an overwhelming economic and military power (look at the map of Europe; Russia accounts for 70% of the land mass of Europe); Bolshevik communism was a very expedient way to ruin the economy of that country.

Likewise, a similar policy was probably pursued for China too. Remember, in the early part of 20th century, "yellow peril" was rampant in the intelligentsia circles of the west. Even Orson Welles wrote a rather racist book on how the nations of the world eventually got together to wage a war of extermination against the Chinese, as every country feared domination by China due to her population size.

Japan was most likely goaded into invading China in order to prevent KMT from successfully unifying China. The bargain Deng struck with the West in 1976 probably involved some kind of pledge on population control in return for foreign direct investment and coming out of communist central planning.

The rest of the world does have a legitmate concern over domination by China, given her large population size, and its long history of totalitarian central planning. China can go a long way towards alleviating such fears by being less nationalistic and giving regions more autonomy and independence. People of the world do not fear Singapore, despite its per capita income being fairly close to that of the US. On the other hand, if China achieves the same kind of per capita income, hence having an economy the size of 4 US's governed under one centralized government . . . the rest of the world would be quite frightened indeed, and would do anything to prevent that from happening.

[ahxiang]

Ahxiang,

Very much enjoying reading some of your writings. I agree with you that there are ample evidence that CCP was bought and paid for by outside interests at the time of its founding, and at least through much of the early years (pre-1949). One fine point I'd like to raise though: the foreign supporters / controllers of CCP in its early years may not have been communists themselves . . . but supporting a party that espouses an unworkable economic system as a way to retard the development of China. It's the same policy as employed by western bankers in their support of Bolsheviks in Russia. The bankers and the German Kaiser were not communists. They just did not want a nationalistic Russia to develop into an overwhelming economic and military power (look at the map of Europe; Russia accounts for 70% of the land mass of Europe); Bolshevik communism was a very expedient way to ruin the economy of that country.

Likewise, a similar policy was probably pursued for China too. Remember, in the early part of 20th century, "yellow peril" was rampant in the intelligentsia circles of the west. Even Orson Welles wrote a rather racist book on how the nations of the world eventually got together to wage a war of extermination against the Chinese, as every country feared domination by China due to her population size.

Japan was most likely goaded into invading China in order to prevent KMT from successfully unifying China. The bargain Deng struck with the West in 1976 probably involved some kind of pledge on population control in return for foreign direct investment and coming out of communist central planning.

The rest of the world does have a legitmate concern over domination by China, given her large population size, and its long history of totalitarian central planning. China can go a long way towards alleviating such fears by being less nationalistic and giving regions more autonomy and independence. People of the world do not fear Singapore, despite its per capita income being fairly close to that of the US. On the other hand, if China achieves the same kind of per capita income, hence having an economy the size of 4 US's governed under one centralized government . . . the rest of the world would be quite frightened indeed, and would do anything to prevent that from happening.

Glad to see you back to the forum. We had some intelligent discourse last year.

About Japan being goaded into invading China. President Hoover did not deny it in 1931. It is what we called white character, black character, all printed on paper. Last year we talked about the currency reform. I went through it again for sake of wrapping up the chapter on nation building. I found this. Morgenthau said: I‘ve just been directed as an agent … If I was on [sic] the pay of the Japanese I’ve been earning my pay.” To know why he said that, we have to see from Chinese perspective. China complained to US that “China might be forced to choose between an onerous political and economic settlement with Japan and internal disintegration”, with US continuing to push up silver. The logic behind Roosevelt's crazy policy was “China has been the Mecca of the people whom I have called the 'money changers in the Temple'..…it is better to hasten the crisis in China ..." You see it was deliberate. There were numerous factions in US. The Russian agents had say over the New Deal policy. The industrialists had their say, and pushed through the Cotton and Wheat credit, for relieving the US depression on the one hand, while on the other hand, you have Comintern denouncing it as aiding the Chiang dictator, with CCP purging county and village level cadres in western Hunan-Hubei for receiving the American "wheat" and Mme Sun convening anti-war congress in SHanghai with slogans to the same effect. Now, after Roosevelt caused the crisis to China, China had no choice but to abandon the silver standard. At this time, you have the whatever agents in US State Department firing the shots. Herbert feis claimed that “to grant a credit to China would be likely to involve the United States deeply in China’s affairs and lead to difficulties with Japan, which claimed primary in economic relations with China.” US used the Amau Doctrine, April 1934, as an excuse to do nothing for China. Who controlled the State Dept? A motley of agents, including those who abhorred the "yellow peril" as well as the Comintern agents who wanted to see no aid to China, and pro-Japanese folks. It was ultimately Morgenthau's "dislike of Japan" that overcame his suspicions of Britain, which led to the silver purchase agreement for facilitating China's currency reform to which Japan objected vehemently. China played a trick here in pegging to sterling or dollar, same as it did in talking to Leighton, the Japanese emissary, who visited Chungking to strike a peace deal.

This is some add-on to the discussions last year.

About the agents of sabotage, saboteurs, provocateurs. Example, the Committee for a Democratic Policy Toward China, where you had the list of people below:
Dr. Phyllis Ackerman, T. A. Bisson, Israel Epstein, Frederick V. Field, Talitha
Gerlach, *Rev. Jack McMichael, Artliur Upliam Pope, Ilona Ralf Sues, Lawrence
E Salisburv, Michael Sayers, Vincent Sheehan, Mrs. Edgar Snow, Maxwell S.
Stewart, Leland Stowe, Rose Terlin, Richard Watts, Jr., Dr. Max Yergan.

Among those guys, you have definite Comintern agents T. A. Bisson, Frederick V. Field, et al. The operations manual of Comintern claimed that they would use cover by hiring some good-natured non-communists to create an impression that it was an impartial and neutral body, while in fact the Comintern agents took the helm. This was same as Lattimore's claim not to give an impression that IPR was faithfully copycatting Comintern lines. People like Vincent Sheehan, Mrs. Edgar Snow et al, were definitely dupes. Now, about Edgar Snow and Rewi ALley at al. Those guys actually witnessed the Comintern operations, with a Marxist study group functioning in Shanghai, not to mention Rewi's money-washing. You have a point about the ambiguity of those persona. Take the example of Ilona Ralf Sues. This woman was like a shuttle woman, going Europe, America, China, and Moscow at will. Acting as adviser to Chiang and Mme Chiang, she was no less a figure in the whole scheme to sabotage China as Smedley. Similarly, you have Hemmingway's wife, the Russian agent.

China the Yellow Peril. It was a theme repeatedly underscored in Anglo-American strategists' talks. (As to Russians, I already mentioned they were HALF-TARTARS.) One famous quote would be from General Smuts: "It may well be that Western civilization will stand or fall in this matter of its contacts with the immense human masses of the East." The more they talked about China’s millions to be militarized by Japan, the more eager the Japanese militarists were to copycat Genghis Khan's feats. US never intended to help China, in both 1931 and 1937. In 1937, Sir Robert Lindsay were told that Americans wanted “exchange of information” and “parallel action” alone, and concluded that “neither His Majesty’s Government nor [the] United States Government were prepared to push their opposition to extremes and [the] Japanese Government knew this perfectly well”. Throughout the war, Dr. Talbot, a HK doctor, repeatedly informed the Anglo-American governments about Japan's use of gas, especially during the later phase of Wuhan Campaign, aftter taking Kiukiang. Recent archives disclosed the reports filed by Dr Talbot et al. However, both British and American repeatedly claimed that there was lack of evidence to prove that.

I am not saying that China had no friends. Arthur Young, Paul Reinsch, and Patrick Hurley et al. They were China's friends, and should be forever remembered so. James Liley is a friend, as well, though to a lesser extent. China, after learning from those lessons of the past and knowing who were friends and who were foes, might come to a better relationship with the rest of the world, as well as provide a better living condition for her own people.

Looking beyond the Russian October Revolution. You do see some bankers behind this. In China, someone did see this. At http://bbs.tiexue.ne..._3294902_1.html someone went to the Russo-Japanese War.
年日俄战争期间，一位名叫雅可布．歇夫的美国金融界犹太巨富出于对沙皇尼古拉二世
的仇恨（1903年4月6日在俄国基希涅夫小镇发生的反犹暴行中，犹太人死45人，86人残
废，500人轻伤。有1500家住屋和商店被掠夺和毁坏），筹集了2000万美元贷款，主动
向日本提供援助，使日本在战争中取胜。明治天皇破例在皇宫内邀请歇夫共进午餐。
What this guy did not know was that Japan did not attack Russia till after the financing was secured, not obtaining the financing during the war.
At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugu_Plan you see a Zionist plan in Manchuria, not to mention the commonly-known plan to set up "Israel" in Southwest China during WWII. Till China's leaders sort out the cause and effect of history, the fate of China is still hanging in the balance.

Edited by ahxiang, 28 May 2009 - 02:02 PM.