309 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

I've been reading an interesting report that according to the scientists in Beijing, northern Han Chinese are genetically way different from southern Han Chinese (Guangdong, Guangxi, Fujian, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau and Hainan).

Read:
http://news.chinatim...0900094,00.html

There is only cultural affinity between these two groups. In fact, southern Han Chinese are more genetically similar to minority groups like Vietnamese while northern Han Chinese are closer to minority groups like Mongols than with each other.

This seems to suggest that the definition of 'han-chinese' was based more on cultural/language aspect than on by blood/genetics.

How do you people find this?

[浪淘音]

I've been reading an interesting report that according to the scientists in Beijing, northern Han Chinese are genetically way different from southern Han Chinese (Guangdong, Guangxi, Fujian, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau and Hainan).

Read:
http://news.chinatim...0900094,00.html

There is only cultural affinity between these two groups. In fact, southern Han Chinese are more genetically similar to minority groups like Vietnamese while northern Han Chinese are closer to minority groups like Mongols than with each other.

This seems to suggest that the definition of 'han-chinese' was based more on cultural/language aspect than on by blood/genetics.

How do you people find this?

 

actually, genetic studies show all Han Chinese essentially have the same Y chromosome while the North has less variation with MTDNA as well, the southeastern coastline has differing MTDNA.

considering the fact that Mongols barely assimilated, it seems unlikely Northerners would share affinity with them

the source and article you listed is laughable, not exactly a top grade anthropology article, is it

i don't do research online much, i read journals and periodicals and i have read several and one of them had an excellent pie graph showing allelle frequences between north and south, they are different but hardly to prove the liberal nonsense that north and south are completely divergent populations

Chinese are only mixed on a sub-racial level, NOT on a racial level. all Chinese are essentially racially Mongoloid

[Enkidu]

Well, this is not the first time I hear or read about the genetic differences of the Northerners and the Southerners. The first time I heard it was from my grandma (when she was making some not so pleasant remarks about my University class-mate, who was from Harbin), and the last time from the article posted below. Not being a geneticist or anthropologist, I can only observe that the difference between the Northern and Southern Chinese is almost like the difference between say, a Swedish and an Italian. My personal view is that the chinese are the union of many people from differing ethnic backgrounds, unified by an almost common culture, and they may not like being portrayed by non-Chinese as being ethically different from each other. Still, this is just my personal view.

[tianzhuwoye]

Sadly, people are free to throw out facts and figures like this basically at will to support whatever theories of racial purity or superiority they have going because there is absolutely no scientific way to demonstrate race. It is already well understood among more rational circles that there are more ‘differences in DNA’ within the ‘major branches’ (like the anachronistic and frankly offensive ‘Mongoloid’) than there are between them.

“Race” began to be expressed when homo sapiens spread out and settled across the planet and started to develop physical characteristics as we adapted to our environments. These patterns of superficial physical difference (on the last check, we’re all still the same species) are understood as geographical variance, as opposed to unique to some given culture or, even more ridiculous, some nation. The problem with these racialists is that they need to fabricate a point in time when these adaptations reached a mythical point of purity and apparently stopped occurring. While most modern states are busy telling us who are ancestors were, the fact is nobody carries anything political, cultural, or containable within a border, in their chromosomes.

Toss out whatever vaguely defined genetic connections or divergences you want, they are completely meaningless, and are always used in the service of some exclusionist political motive. Essentially these arbitrary ‘ethnic’ groupings have all the same rigorous intellectual support and objectives of a caste system. Luckily some of us are already well into the 21st century and ready to move on from these divisive nationalist ‘master race’ fantasies.

[Kulong]

I've always thought that Han is not a "pure" ethnic group and it's more based on culture & language rather than genetics.

[浪淘音]

I've always thought that Han is not a "pure" ethnic group and it's more based on culture & language rather than genetics.

 

there are obvious differences between North and south Han but it is generalized and exaggerated for the benefit of liberal extremists

plus, "north" and "south" are poor categories. I have this excellent pie graph which shows this. people from Huabei and Jiangnan are indistinguishable, however, if you were to compare Dongbei and Huabei, there are still differences.

most genetic testing of Chinese is extremely biased. i read one mtdna test they did and they ONLY tested samples from Dongbei and Guangdong. OF COURSE you're gonna see alot of differences but they leave out the fact that there is little genetic difference from southern Shanxi all the way down to Hunan.

EVERYONE has agenda, but its usually the more conservative that are accused of this but liberals have one to and they tend to provide these ridiculously poorly done genetic tests to show "no such thing as race"

in fact, they tested a population from Shandong 2,500 years ago called the "LinZi population" test and they came to the conclusion that they were European related and LATER they tested again, and found the original test dna was contaminated

[adoo]

.....considering the fact that Mongols barely assimilated, it seems unlikely Northerners would share affinity with them...

subjective claims are not facts

tongyan's observation is more persuasive

....i have with me a quite subjective observation of northerners in the san francisco bay area

40-50% are mongolian stock
20-30% are a mix of han and mongolian/steppe ppls
~10% are recent southern immigrants (mix southern aboriginal and han)
~10% are recent southern immigrants (former northern migrants with little/no intermarriage with aboriginal)

[浪淘音]

subjective claims are  not  facts 

tongyan's observation  is  more  persuasive

 

15% of Khalka Mongols have a Han y chromosome, unless you can actually start identifying "Mongol" genes, then we can assume through the (rightfully) segregation laws imposed during the Yuan did their job and kept Han/Mongol intermarriage to a minimum

most of the time, whenever a Cantonese sees another Chinese bigger than them(IE EVERYONE), he assumes they have "Mongol blood". I don't know how many times i've been called a Qidan hybrid despite the fact that the Liao kingdom only had a small strip of China proper and my ancestors were hundreds of miles away in Henan and Shandong

[Gubook Janggoon]

I've always thought that Han is not a "pure" ethnic group and it's more based on culture & language rather than genetics.

 

Agreed...seems like old news to me...

[tongyan]

...

most of the time, whenever a Cantonese sees another Chinese bigger than them(IE EVERYONE), he assumes they have "Mongol blood". I don't know how many times i've been called a Qidan hybrid despite the fact that the Liao kingdom only had a small strip of China proper and my ancestors were hundreds of miles away in Henan and Shandong...

 

i must agree with this one... most Cantonese will refer to other Chinese who are bigger than them to be of "Mongol blood" - not in my case tho because the Chinese I have observed are mostly shorter than me. I made my statement from the observation that northerners generally have a rounder face. my gf, who is from harbin, fits this round-face description and agrees that ppl from her area tend to look more mongolian.(from the fact that her mongolian classmates are physically indistinguishable from everyone else) could be that the mongolians she's seen are just well assimilated.
she does make the counterclaim that southerners have a thinner face which makes us look 'cunning' or 'scheming'.
just some subjective commetns from both ends of the spectrum.

why do they call you a qidan hybrid? who among those who are alive now have seen how a qidan looks?

[General_Zhaoyun]

There is an interesting article at

http://www.jinchuang...uxian/qutan.htm

talking about the typical chinese look and differences between the looks of chinese northerners and southerners..

Northerner's face tend to be more 'squarish' and flat. Many of them have single eyelid just like Koreans.

Southerner's face tend to have more bony features. Many of them have double eyelids.

科学家经过调查，给中国人的脸画了个像：最多的是鹅蛋脸，南方人中菱形脸和五角形脸的数量也较多。面部扁平，颧骨突出；皮肤多为浅黄或棕黄；头发较黑，较直；多数是丹凤眼；鼻梁不太高，嘴不前突，嘴唇不厚不薄。

按照中国人的审美习惯，鹅蛋脸比较美，这是由于鹅蛋脸的宽度为5只眼睛长度，两眼的间距为1只眼睛长，从左右眼角到左右耳廓各为1只眼睛长度，看上去比较协调。长方脸、圆形脸和菱形脸、五角形脸的人，也不必为此而懊丧，因为长有长的美，圆有圆的美，每一种脸型都有它美的地方。

    有人对中国人头部的长度要和宽度，作过一番测量和统计。同样是中国人，头的长度最小的只有164毫米，最大的却有206毫米；头的宽度最小的仅 129毫米，最大的可达164毫米。东北黑龙江、吉林的人，头的长度最短，平均在187毫米以下，而华南的广东、广西、福建人，头的长度比北方人长，平均在187毫米以上。北方人和南方人头的宽度也不一样：华北和东北地区的人，头部宽度平均在155毫米以上；华南和西南地区的人，头部宽度平均在155毫米以下。由此可见，中国北方人的头部短而宽，而南方人的头部长而窄。

    根据测量结果可以发现，中国人的面部大体可分成三段相等的部分：由前额发际（也就是脑门上长头发的那条线）到两只眼睛相连水平线的距离；由两眼水平线到两侧口角水平线的距离；由鼻孔底部到下巴尖端的距离，三者基本相等。脸上这三段距离不相等的人，看上去就显得不那么顺眼。

    脸上的表情在言谈举止中是举足轻重的，它是一种无声的语言。心理学家认为，在人表达的全部感情里，言语只占7%，声音占了38%，而面部表情则占55%。正如18世纪法国哲学家狄德罗所说，一个人"心灵的每一个活动都表现在他的脸上。"

[Gubook Janggoon]

There is an interesting article at

http://www.jinchuang...uxian/qutan.htm

talking about the typical chinese look and  differences between the looks of chinese northerners and southerners..

Northerner's face tend to be more 'squarish' and flat. Many of them have single eyelid just like Koreans.

Southerner's face tend to have more bony features. Many of them have double eyelids.

 

I think it's impossible to stereotype like this. You can't say, "These types of people are like this and these types of people are like that, no matter what." It simply isn't always true. For instance, my mother, father, and I all happen to have double eyelids, and we are all "pure" Koreans.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Gubuk, it's kinda of unique for Koreans like you to have double eyelid.. most typical Koreans I know (in fact, have been to Korea so many times) have single eyelid..and small eyes.. which is typical Mongolian face, my tour guide in Korea told me..

[Gubook Janggoon]

Hmm...that may be so, but I still believe that those kinds of generalizations are stereotypes...I conced that they may be true for the majority of the population, but more than likely they are not 100% accurate...


But anyways yea...could perhaps the Northerners being more related to Northern Nomadic peoples have something to do with the Shanghainese dialect having a SOV grammar structure?

[General_Zhaoyun]

It is true that if you travel to China, you will notice a difference in the looks between north Chinese and south chinese, although the general look of chinese is mongoloid.

Over the course of history, there are several cases of migration as well as mixing involved.

During the age of fragmentation, large number of northern nomadic tribes such Xianbei, XiongNu migrated into northern and central China. They mixed with han-chinese and over the course of history, this created the typical 'northern chinese look' that is more mongolian 'squarish' look. Don't forget later on, the mixing with Turks, Jurchen, Manchu , Mongols etc.

There is also a history of migration of han-chinese from north to south during the following period:
Age of Fragmentation
Song dynasty

Northern Han-chinese mixed with southerners and created the more typical south chinese look.

Most cantonese I know are generally shorter and darker, as compared to northerners who are tall and fair.