89 replies to this topic

[Jiang Qin]

I would think twice before saying another person's weapon "sucks".

Why did the Keris do bad at mid and long range? Because it's a close range dagger. It still would inflict quite a nasty cut up close, and daggers that size are probably more effective than swords at extremely close range.

There is no weapon that "sucks" because it doesn't do well in a category it's not meant to be used in. Would you say that the Chinese Dao "sucks" too, simply because you cannot use it at long range?

Judge a weapon by its effectiveness at the task it was meant for, please. Not by a task it wasn't meant for. Now ask yourself...did the Keris do a terrible job at the range and style of fighting it was designed for?

I know about that but what I said was the general opinion about the weapon here. Keris is really usefull in close range, and I already knew it long before I posted. k'? But in close range combat, the sword is definetly better in everyway unless the sword wielder lets the enemy too close until it can inflict a deadly wound la....

I have never seen a sword wielder that will allow their enemy with a dagger/keris to close him down so closely. If that happens, the swordsman must be "crazy". That's the reason I said the weapon was almost as useless in those mid-long situation. But you're right there, judge it by the effectiveness in it's task.

And I'm really just describing the weapon not condeming it. Sorry for using s***s. k'? Sorry because I used it too commonly in my everyday life. For me and my friends, s***s means bad or anything not good. I hope we're not going hostile here k'? Sorry if i offended anyone.

[Yang Zongbao]

Alright. I too am sorry that I jumped on you like that...but I just didn't think it was right to make assumptions about wepaons like that...and I took offense at the word, not knowing that you used it so casually. I'm sorry, friend.

Then again, it'd also take a crazy Keris user to continually try to stay just in the sword's optimum range. Then you'd have to test the agility of both parties.

[HaSY]

I know about that but what I said was the general opinion about the weapon here. Keris is really usefull in close range, and I already knew it long before I posted. k'? But in close range combat, the sword is definetly better in everyway unless the sword wielder lets the enemy too close until it can inflict a deadly wound la....

I have never seen a sword wielder that will allow their enemy with a dagger/keris to close him down so closely. If that happens, the swordsman must be "crazy". That's the reason I said the weapon was almost as useless in those mid-long situation. But you're right there, judge it by the effectiveness in it's task.

And I'm really just describing the weapon not condeming it. Sorry for using s***s. k'? Sorry because I used it too commonly in my everyday life. For me and my friends, s***s means bad or anything not good. I hope we're not going hostile here k'?    Sorry if i offended anyone.

hey...that word there I also been using in my daily life.....I guess different areas and different definitions for words....

is there any weapon dagger-type aside from keris........?
gladius?

[Grigori]

Metallurgically speaking, the Indian wootz "Damacus" is more interesting than Japanese techniques, which were just close variations of the Chinese techniques. Despite the affinity of collecting wootz swords, China never seemed to have made any. Wonder why that is.

[lobster]

Sorry but... any pictures of wootz?

[Grigori]

Sorry but... any pictures of wootz? 

Modern repro crystaline wootz cake

[HaSY]

looks like shamshir or tulwar to me?

[TMPikachu]

Metallurgically speaking, the Indian wootz "Damacus" is more interesting than Japanese techniques, which were just close variations of the Chinese techniques. Despite the affinity of collecting wootz swords, China never seemed to have made any. Wonder why that is.

could the technique have been a guarded secret?

It seems China did 'only' differential heat treatment on sabers. I *think* twist-core might have been used for double edged swords though...

but with the damascus technique, what difference does it make, if any? Or is it just another path to the same end?

[Grigori]

could the technique have been a guarded secret?

It seems China did 'only' differential heat treatment on sabers. I *think* twist-core might have been used for double edged swords though...

but with the damascus technique, what difference does it make, if any? Or is it just another path to the same end?

All swordmaking technique has the same end in mind: make a lightweight unbreakable sword that never gets dull. Some gets closer to that goal than others.

Wootz is fundamentally different from composite construction and twist core welding popular in China. These techniques take several grades of steel and try to combine them to reduce the limitations of the individual steel grades. Wootz however is different at the microstructure level. It has a huge amount of hard crystaline carbides suspended in a soft matrix. Theoritically it can hold an edge longer than conventional steel and resist chipping.

That's not to say it's better in all areas to East Asian swordmaking, but that China never made any is striking. Sure the technology involved wasn't exactly open source. The knowlege wasn't beyond learning if demand was great enough though.

[BlueDragonMagik]

I hear from someone many years ago. ... In the 1930's, when the Japanese invade China. There were supposed to be duels between Chinese sword (dao) players and Japanese swordsman. ... Has anyone ever heard of that before?

[Thomas Chen]

I hear from someone many years ago.  ...  In the 1930's, when the Japanese invade China.   There were supposed to be duels between Chinese sword (dao) players and Japanese swordsman.   ... Has anyone ever heard of that before?

I recall V.R. Mattheis telling a tale on swordforum about famous martial artist Liu Yunchiao who answered a challenge directed by a Japanese kenjutsu expert in northern China to the Chinese martial artists of the area... There were 2 accounts of the ending: one of which was Liu defeated him and let him live... The other was that Liu slit the Japanese's throat...

Not sure if this story is really true... and if the ending is real...

[Thomas Chen]

Metallurgically speaking, the Indian wootz "Damacus" is more interesting than Japanese techniques, which were just close variations of the Chinese techniques. Despite the affinity of collecting wootz swords, China never seemed to have made any. Wonder why that is.

but that China never made any is striking. Sure the technology involved wasn't exactly open source. The knowlege wasn't beyond learning if demand was great enough though.

I have read in some books that the Liao and Jin Dynasties, contemporaries of the Song, had made wootz steel for their weapons... Possibly they got this technology from the Central Asian Turks...

[BlueDragonMagik]

I recall V.R. Mattheis telling a tale on swordforum about famous martial artist Liu Yunchiao who answered a challenge directed by a Japanese kenjutsu expert in northern China to the Chinese martial artists of the area... There were 2 accounts of the ending: one of which was Liu defeated him and let him live... The other was that Liu slit the Japanese's throat...

Not sure if this story is really true... and if the ending is real...

Thanks a lot Thomas. ... Are there any stories where the Big Saber Group (Dai Dao Dui ?) fighting against Japanese swordsmen in the 1930's ?

[TMPikachu]

This is somewhat unrelated, but it involves dueling
When Japan and Germany and others were carving up China, there was a conflict between Japanese and German interests. There is supposedly one account where a Japanese officer with a katana challenged a German officer with a saber. Both of their men stopped fighting to watch their duel. The German beat the Japanese, but the Japanese soldiers defeated the Germans.

[Hang Li Po]

KERIS IN OKINAWA

Surprising find at Okinawa temple

BY DEVID RAJAH

OKINAWA: An ancient blade of a keris found recently at the royal Enkakuji Temple grounds near the 15th century Shurijo Castle might unravel the ties the Malay world had with these southwestern islands of Japan.

As the war-ravaged Enkakuji Temple was being restored, construction workers stumbled upon a protruding porcelain pot handle at a spot where offerings were made to the gods.

The ensuing archaeological dig unearthed nine other items, including the wavy blade of a keris, foreign to this part of the world.

Historians believe the keris could be from either Malacca or Java as Okinawa and the its surrounding islands under the old Kingdom of Ryukyus had diplomatic and trade ties with ancient cities and ports in Asia, including Malacca, before it became a part of Japan in 1879.

The blade measuring 22.1cm from the tip to hilt was found without the handle and sheath, as the wooden parts had been destroyed.

According to the Okinawa Prefecture Archaeological Centre officials the blade was found buried along with other items, including a clay plate with carvings of a dragon shaped boat, a glazed pot, a gold-plated door hinge and a metal door skirting.

The castle restoration work started in 1989 and the Shurijo Park was opened to public in 1992 while restoration work at the temple is still ongoing.



SOMETHING DIFFERENT: A staff member of the Okinawa Prefecture Archaeological Centre showing the blade of the keris found at the Enkakuji Temple grounds.

Prof Dr Kurayoshi Takara a historian from the University of The Ryukyus said the discovery had not been publicised much and is unknown to people outside Okinawa and Japan.

He believes the discovery of the blade of a keris would spark international interest among historians and archaeologists to determine its origin.

“I personally believe it could have been from Malacca because the Ryukyus Kingdom had started trading with Malacca in the 15th century,” said Prof Takara, who has been to Malaysia and Malacca to carry out research on the ancient ties the Kingdom of Ryukyus had with Southeast Asian kingdoms.

From historical records, Prof Takara said, the Ryukyus had started trading with Siam (Thailand), between 1425 and 1570, Malacca (1463-1511), Patani (Southern Thailand) (1490-1543) and several other areas in Indonesia (Palembang, Java and Sumatra) and Cambodia.

“Records also indicate Ryukyuan junks went to Malacca every year for 49 years and carried out trade with local merchants, Arabs and Indians.

“They would bring gold, silver, copper, tin, and Chinese ceramic from mainland Japan and China and trade them for ivory and wine,” he said, adding that there were also correspondence between the rulers of Malacca and Ryuyukus.

Malacca was also known for its high quality wine (believed to be nipah wine), but later years Ryukyuans started buying it from Thailand when Malacca stopped making it.

Article published in the Star Online, June 26, 2003